What is Really Happening In Regards to GI Crime

Good post. I urge you to monitor the comments section over at Marmot as well, chime in as appropriate; I already cut and pasted and quoted you there, from your earlier reply comment from the thread just prior.

I mentioned it to you previously but it bears repeating: IMO all the "wholesome" off-duty activities you can possibly think of, even if implemented immediately, won't substitute for the attractions of drink and loose women. The only long-term solution is to bring the troops home, if things have gotten this bad.

This incident you cite above is so outrageously one-sided that it amazes even me. What (if anything) did the commanders concerned do about it? Sounds like they need to start funding US-controlled bus transportation between post and the "ville" after hours, and if necessary get into a confrontation with the Korean local authorities over a "boycott" of the extorting local cabs. Of course the GO's concerned and even the US ambassador would need to back them up; somehow I doubt this will happen as it would be too "disturbing" to the big picture of KA relations.

Gosh, now I'm starting to sound like Sally. It's enough to make me start crying, except Sally would accuse me of overdosing myself with perfume and wearing my thong too tight, causing an emotional reaction.

And perhaps she'd be right! Yes, Sally, maybe now I finally "savvy" (sob).

GI, It's Uniform Code of Military Justuce not Universal Code of Military Justice; just wanted to point that out. And, I sort of agree with the Nomad in that it starts with the chain of command. And, the chain of command can change the "ville culture" if they are concerned with the welfare of their soldiers. The platoon sergeants and leaders need to spend a lot of time mentoring their soldiers and by that I mean providing alternatives to the "ville". I appointed an R&R NCO and officer in my company and made them responsible for providing alternatives to the "ville" and gave them the resources to make it happen. And, we made phisical fitness one of the top priorities in the unit, including nutrition and rest. My unit went from leading the battalion in blotter reports to having none for over a year because the leadersip cared about the soldiers. Right now, as I see it, when the leaders get off, they do their own thing and leave the soldiers to do their own thing. No one visits the barracks to talk to soldiers on the weekends and evenings. It's your "Army of One" mentality that is the problem because they've taken it on as a new meaning. I used to see soldiers walking down Casey Blvd with bags of TA-50 heading to the turtle farm to turn it in. Or speniding money for a cab. Real leadership helps soldiers who are departing as well as the ones who are arriving. This is just one symptom of poor leadership by the NCO's and officers. There's lots of alternatives, but someone in charge needs to lead them at the squad and platoon level to make the change.

Thanks for pointing out my error. I was pretty tired when typing this up last night after pulling CP all night trying prevent things like I described in the above post. However, you are right, leadership can reduce the amount of incidents with soldiers but incidents would be easier to reduce if the senior leadership created conditions that created a better environment in the villes. I have pulled a lot of CPs in my time in 2ID and I am just continuously amazed that we allow our soldiers to congregate in such a place that promotes alcoholism and prostitution and then we are suprised when we do have alcohol related incidents and prostitution arrests.

With all the CPs I have pulled up here, I can probably count on one hand the number of non-Area 1 soldiers I have seen come up here. I can't think why they want to come up to the crappy villes up here when they have much better entertainment establishments in their own neck of the woods. If I was stationed down south I would never come up here.

As far as the gangster mentality in 2ID I really cannot speak as an authority on this because I have never been stationed down south before, just up here in 2ID. However, there are of course some of these wannabe gangsters running around but I don't know if that is any different then the amount of wannabe gangsters stationed down south. Possibly the amount of combat arms personnel up here has something to do with the amount of incidents. I really don't have the hard data to draw logical conclusions but I do know that something does need to be changed with the ville culture around here. Like you said that is something the Generals and Colonels get paid to do. Locking everyone on post is not the answer.

As far as moving down to Camp Humphreys I would be surprised if that actually happens by 2008 the way the Koreans are dragging their feet on the issue. They have been talking about moving Yongsan for years and it is still sitting there in the middle of Seoul.

What an utterly one-sided and ridiculous post. Right, don't blame the people, blame the environment. This kind of thinking is exactly at the heart of why, more and more, I am convinced the armed forces in this country need to leave. I say this as an American.
Lets be honnest here. The majority of the soldiers in Korea treat this place as if it were a post-war 1960s playground. I see it in my neighborhood in Pusan all the time, and it's not even bad here. I see soliders "hail" taxis by slamming their hands on the trunks. I see them yelling at bartenders in English and yelling more loudly when they aren't understood. I see them indiscriminately yanking girls to their side like they are prostitutes.
Lets imagine for a moment, your scenario is played out. That Korea decides to cater to the soliders and give them shuttles to Lotteworld. Set up excursions to Andong. Makes the bar owners subscribe to the American ideas of consumption. Clean up Area 1 and everything else. Are trying to tell me that in return the soliders are going to dutifly respect the people and the environments they inhabit? Sure, it might cut down on the number of incidents, but the "beyond racist" behavior of the soliders will still be there.
You suggest that the solider will always be blamed and the ajushi will always win. Well, guess what? That's "justice" in Korea. You may long for your tried and true brand of American justice that you think you get in America, but guess what? This is a different country and a different culture. I don't particularly like it either, and therefore, I don't get up on top of taxi cabs…even if I think I've been severly wronged. I stay out of trouble. I study the language, the culture and its history. Is it too much to ask of these young soliders? Or, as you suggest, should be simply change their environment so they feel "more at home" and can abide by the same laws of decorum they'd surely observing in St. Louis or Houston. Where they'd hand over their ID card, and when found to be underage, would simply turn around, go back to their bed and read the bible.

I always find thoughts like this interesting. I mean in an objective sort of way.

I'll start by saying I didn't hang around US soldiers or around entertainment places near US bases, so I can't say my experience with them is different from what the none named commentor saw..

In fact, I don't know of any of the language instructor expats I worked with hung around soldiers or went to clubs where the majority of the people were soldiers, and I taught and lived in Korea for about 5 years. When I worked inside Seoul, I worked with a few teachers who went to Itaewan regularly for the night life, and they thus had an opportunity to see soldiers in action, but they didn't go to locations where the soldiers went to drink and unwind.

What makes comments about the frequent bad behavior of soldiers sometimes stick out in my mind are thoughts like this that go along with it —

"You suggest that the solider will always be blamed and the ajushi will always win. Well, guess what? That's "justice" in Korea. You may long for your tried and true brand of American justice that you think you get in America, but guess what? This is a different country and a different culture. I don't particularly like it either, and therefore, I don't get up on top of taxi cabs…even if I think I've been severly wronged. I stay out of trouble. I study the language, the culture and its history. Is it too much to ask of these young soliders? Or, as you suggest, should be simply change their environment so they feel "more at home" and can abide by the same laws of decorum they'd surely observing in St. Louis or Houston. Where they'd hand over their ID card, and when found to be underage, would simply turn around, go back to their bed and read the bible."

We jump from a description of the majority of the GIs treating SK like a shit hole and deserving contempt to an idea that the soldiers are mistreated because this is Korea and that's what Koreans do, so they should shut up and endure. We go from a list of offenses that would piss people off in America, with two of them possibly being criminal acts, especially the sexual harassment of radom women on the street, and these offenses are said to be rampant in Pusan – which is a more subdued area when it comes to GI offenses than others in Korea – — go to an implied idea that the soldiers don't really deserve the justice in Korean society and Korean law they get, but they have to live with it because they are not in Kansas anymore.

Then in the last line, the bible is thrown in.

One of the tendancies in higher education in the US is to look down on the military. It isn't just Koreans who believe the majority of soldiers are uneducated bumpkins who couldn't get a job in the real world and joined the military where they could also make being an asshole a career rather than a hobby.

And when I see an argument that seems to swing around somewhat like the comment above, I start wondering if what has been observed on the ground in Korea really matches the level of indigation offered.

I had a good discussion over at Marmot's Hole with a similar thing concerning Christian missionaries (Korean ones) and the educated contempt for such people in higher education in the US.

And I am guessing the reference to the bible is also a sign of a pre-Korea disposition.

Good post GI Korea. Despite what some others said here, in the five years I've lived in Korea (I'm not a soldier or an English teacher) the overwhelming majority of troops I've met or seen around Seoul have been courteous and respectful. Unfortunately the U.S. has let Korea develop a dependency on the troops in the local areas that is parasitic in some ways, and the Korean gov't turns a blind eye to it, because that's the easiest way out. Your suggestions sound spot on, and I hope somebody in your CoC listens.

I can see my comments posted this morning were a little unwieldy. My aim remains the same. Surely, Korean business owners can be partly to blame for these situations. And if the original post was meant to suggest that, say 5%, of the problem is the Koreans running businesses in the area the USFK’s unwillingness to sponsor excursion trips for GIs the media's unfair portrayal; then ok, I’m with you. But I seriously doubt 5% is less than your looking for here.
Ignore the argument that the GIs should or shouldn’t be here. It’s an issue for a larger forum. But it’s a simple fact that the USFK’s ideas of this country (and North Korea for that matter) are long out of date. It’s time to stop treating this place like it’s a freshly occupied playground. The raping and pillaging phase is over. You can drink your booze, you can screw your prostitutes. But go about it in a way that doesn’t offend other people.
Frankly, I’d like to see a few of these guys get tried in the Korean court. Yeah, they’d get screwed and it wouldn’t be fair, but it might stop these inbreds from acting like they own this country.
I don’t want to sound like I despise GIs or think they are uneducated lumps who couldn’t get jobs back home. I don’t like to judge people like that. And having never known a GI personally, in my country or here, I’m not qualified to offer a character analysis. However, I’d like for the GIs to simply prove their reputation incorrect. I’ve seen more GIs here than I ever did in America, and frankly, said reputation, from what I see with my own two eyes (in addition to what I read and hear on blogs like this) seems to be quite accurate.

You are being inaccurate again. The idiots that do get in trouble with the Korean authorities do stand trial in the Korean courts. The only time they don't is when the offense is determined to be so minor that the Korean authorities give it back to the Army to handle so the Korean authorities don't have to waste their time dealing with it. A perfect example was a soldier that picked up for urinating in public. He got picked up by the KNPs and handed over to the MPs where he will go through UCMJ procedures. However, the recent events that happened in Uijongbu will most certainly be handled in the Korean courts.

Also another inaccuracy is that the GI's you do see are the same ones that go to the clubs all the time and not all of them are getting in trouble. Most are minding their own business. The other half of the soldiers are in their rooms playing video games or talking to their families in the states. People with families which the majority of the soldiers in the military including myself have usually do not go out and raise hell every weekend. The only time I go out to the ville is to pull CP duty. So you are seeing the same type of people every weekend out at the club and are stereotyping everyone else because of the actions of a minority. Is that fair for all the other people who are minding their own business?

I can see it is going to do no good arguing with you but I maintain that it is inaccurate to label all the soldiers here in Korea by the few idiots you see in Itaewon or any other ville. Many soldiers do not go to the ville. How many barracks have you been into on Friday nights? There are plenty of people sitting in their rooms minding their own business. They are not all out in the ville hanging out with drinky girl and jumping on taxi cabs like you claim. I don't judge all Koreans by the idiot taxi cab drivers I run into all the time just like you shouldn't judge all GIs by the few "gangster rapper" wannabes you see in the ville.

"It’s time to stop treating this place like it’s a freshly occupied playground. The raping and pillaging phase is over."

"Frankly, I’d like to see a few of these guys get tried in the Korean court."

Well, thanks for pointing out you have no experience with GIs, because the quotes above show you know next to nothing about what happens in Korea.

US soldiers have been routinely put before Korean courts and placed in Korean prisons at least going back to 1989, which is where the Korean newspaper archives stop, and I've found reference to a case back in 1979 – though I haven't been able to verify it.

Perhaps you shouldn't throw around such strong, emotionally charged opinions when you yourself say you don't have enough info to go on.

And when you throw around terms like "inbred" but then say "I don't want it to sound like I despise GIs" but then go on throughout the bulk of the messages saying they are rampaging Huns raping and pillaging through Korea — as you have seen with your own eyes — what do you expect people to conclude?

I'd like to know some of your firsthand experiences where you saw the soldiers on the rampage that led you to conclude they are as you describe. Some examples.

Damn, you just made one hell of a head up your ass comment.

I'd also like to say that this country seems to have its highs, and its lows, but for the most part I've not had too many bad experiences. I understand a lot of the Koreans don't like us, and from some of the people I work with I can see why, but those dumbasses don't represent the rest of us soldiers. I'm one of those 'barracks rats' that really would rather just use the gym, sit in front of my computer, go for a walk, and call my fiancee as opposed to making nightly trips to the Ville. Hell the only time I go to the Ville is to visit one of two resteraunts off post, or to buy DVD's/touristy crap. The two restaurants I visit caught my attention as they're both very clean, not just next to the bars and clubs around them- but in general. They also have good food, friendly service, and are all-around respectable establishments. However you have to walk through alley after alley of bullshit juicy clubs and hooker hangouts to get to them- and that for me is a big turn off. The Ville is an place that lends itself to breeding idiocy, not to say soldiers aren't responsible for their actions- there are some that really could use self control- however you can't expect everyone to be perfect and play nice in such an environment.

Now I just want to say that I'm a soldier down here in Area III, and I've been reading your blog for a while GI Korea, and I really appreciate all that you write. I sent my friends and family the link to this place, helps them better understand whats happening in their sons life.

I'll have to look into that, thank you.

While I appreciate the comments of GI Korea, USinKorea and others of you who seem to have taken up this potentially useful line of discussion, my own experiences lead me down a different path than simply relying on the "colonels and generals" to figure out a solution to changing the ville environment.

First, my qualifications as an observer and the scope of said observation. I am not a Korean-American but by a strange twist of fate was raised in that community. An Army brat, my Step-Mom, Step-Sister and a huge extended "Step-Family" were all Korean and so, even though I didn't take the opportunity to learn the language as a kid, by the time I first deployed to Korea in 1995, I was well acquainted with the differences in culture and thought process. Did two tours in 2ID, from 1995-96 and then again from 2000-2002 and followed the last with a year in Yongsan. I was in 2ID as a 2LT and then later as a CPT and Battery Commander at Camp Stanley, Uijongbu.

BLUF: I think the expectation that either the senior brass or the Korean government will ever change the ville environment is unrealistic. I believe the most effective leadership in the US Army (or USMC for that matter) has always resided at the Battalion and below and those company grade officers and middle to senior-grade NCOs have the greatest (perhaps only) chance to really alter what goes on out there.

While my own experience in command certainly can't be said to be normal (but what the hell is a "normal" tour in 2ID?!) I will say that during those 18 months, my battery of 120 personnel rotated just short of 300 men through . . . without a single incident in the ville. While luck may have played a part, I'm Irish and so generally only attract the bad variety, I believe several factors contributed to such a run: 1) Most importantly, I had an incredible First Sergeant who, though he didn't initially know the Koreans, trusted my knowledge till he did, and was the epitome of military discipline, setting an incredibly high standard for himself and our soldiers. We saw eye-to-eye on almost every issue and he gave the unit intense pride. 2) As a non-drinker/visitor of prostitutes during my first tour in the ROK (ostensibly for religious reasons) I had taken all that extra free time and actually taught myself the language. So when I came back in 2000, I could argue with KNPs in their language . . . and I always won. The slightly seedier side of the same capability became apparent when I made clear my policies directly to the bar owners where my soldiers frequented in the ville and my willingness to make their business unofficially off limits to my personnel. 3) I had a Battalion commander who supported the "wrath of God" approach to alcohol-related incidents and I had no problem referring people to ADAPCP for even minor incidents on post. I always felt that if we can be expected to be responsible for munitions that can kill hundreds at a swath, we should be expected to drink responsibly. 4) My 1SG and I were intensely interested in what the boys were doing during their off time. Top and I routinely stopped by the barracks in evenings and over weekends and I made it a habit to stop by every club in the ville my troops frequented EVERY time I returned to the camp. Bottom line to this rant is that for a year and a half, some 300 soldiers, NCOs and officers who were demographically no different than any other similiar group in the country, had not one incident of indiscipline in the ville.

It is in the power of company/battery grade officers and NCOs to change their own unit's ville environment. GI Korea has it right when advising soldiers to swallow their pride and walk away from confrontation the KNs. On average we are one-and-a-half times the size of the average Korean and are trained to kill . . . a fight will nearly always (nearly, I said) come out in our favor. But Korean law has no provision for self-defense, the concept doesn't exist in their legal framework, and so whoever causes the higher hospital bills gets the greater fine . . . and we get free medical care!

These cultural, political and even legal differences are important for our soldiers to understand. While Aaron and none's comments are uninformed mimicry of the kind of internet propaganda put out by anti-US groups (and NK infiltrators . . . redundant in some cases, I know) in that country, I've found nearly without exception that when you get outside that 1-3 Km of slum surrounding a US Camp and "attached" ville (not all that different from "Fayettenam" by the way!) Korean people are relatively open minded and, as Krasny noted, during that four years I can only remember one negative incident with a Korean national, and he was clearly deranged and so doesn't count . . . crazy is crazy in any country! Still, the Koreans are the way they are for a reason, just as we are the way we are for a reason to include education, environment, history and socialization to name a few factors. It does no good to simply lump any group of humans together and bad-mouth them as they are all individuals and have to be taken as such. Granted, their culture makes them seem more monolithic than we are . . . but over time you begin to see that's really not all that true either. While we, as Americans, have a poor track record of being culturally sensitive, I've seen plenty of foreigners in the US refusing to learn English and otherwise acting like they were back in Korea, China, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Italy, Russia, Germany . . . and on and on and on.

Those of you currently serving in Korea, don't get sucked into false or limited perceptions on either side of the cultural divide. If you never go further than 3 Km from your camp (and simply going to another camp's ville doesn't count!) than you have as little idea of what Korea is like and what Koreans are like as the vast majority of Koreans who have never met an American GI but think poorly of us. Shame on them, shame on you. Get out and see the country, meet the people. You'll widen your own perspective and the courtesy and respect you show (and yes, that generally IS the face US servicemen and women show abroad!) may have a wider impact on the population than you ever could have imagined.

You're absolutely right, there is certainly no shortage of idiots in the world and so you can't completely write them out of the equation . . . nor do I think you can really do anything about them other than to identify them early and watch them closely.

Still, to beg the senior leadership to fix the problem is to ask for a degree of interference at the low levels that you know you already get way too much of and that generally doesn't ever really fix the problem anyway. I was still in Yongsan when the push to make prostitution illegal was conducted. What did it fix? Nothing . . . what got worse? Soldiers got into trouble in places further afield than the ville, putting them more in the spotlight than ever before because the same types of people were still out there looking for the same type of entertainment, they just had to go further to get it.

I agree that it will take leadership on all levels to address the problem, but were I back in 2ID (and I'd give my left nut to be back with soldiers and NCOs!!!) I would really want a chain of command that supported what I already knew to be right and was prepared to personally invest my time and energy in. You are closer to the problem and, trust me, have a much better understanding of what's going on down there than any of the colonels or higher who passed through the ville once (maybe) on an orientation tour! My impression of fixes from on high is just what I mentioned above, they cause more problems than they solve. Don't let a bunch of us staff wienies (yes, I resignedly relegate myself to that group!) fix the problem . . . that's a recipe for disaster.

As for the vast majority of commanders in Korea . . . its not entirely their fault that they are unprepared for what they've gotten into. Many of them come into it thinking its just like any other unit in any other place, easily forgetting or glossing over the vast (and I think obvious) differences. Many come to Korea with a 9-5, M-F, "the weekends are my time" attitude and that just doesn't work. Or worse, in many cases they come over fresh from divorce or are "taking a break" from a bad marriage and see the tour as a second chance at frat life. By the time they figure it out (often after their first "2-Block" command OER) their unit is a mess and many of them spend the rest of their time in command trying to undo the mess they've made. Sadly, I saw it over and over again!

Yes, I place an awful lot of responsiblity on the lower echelons of leadership. I acted the way I did in command because I'd had a glimpse into the future during my first tour and knew what I was getting into. My first Battery Commander had told me as a young XO that simply showing up unexpectedly in the doorway of the hostess bars in the ville could keep a soldier from doing something stupid that would ruin his life and he'd regret for the rest of it. And so I "patrolled" the ville is how my fellow BC's put it . . . partly in jest, but again, it worked. For so little a time commitment on my part they knew that I knew what was going on and that seemed to make a huge difference . . . and you'd better believe the "element" that ran the ville knew as well, and we had no problems.

I don't think our NCOs and Officers need additional training, and unless 2ID has changed alot since I left Korea in 2003, the last thing you all need is more mandatory training/briefings to sit through! I think they already know what's right and how to take care of soldiers, they may just need reminding (and sometimes cajoling!) I've worked now with so many different nations' armies, the already high regard with which I've always held American NCOs has gone through the roof and I have every confidence in their ability (especially when properly and conscientiously led but often in spite of poor leadership) to rise to the occasion. The pimps and other criminal element that works soldiers over in the villes may have experience on their side . . . but I'll put my money on the U.S. Army NCO any day!

I don't understand why so many english speaking white males think we should automatically respect a bunch of hairy people with low intelligence. Who asked you to come here anyways? So you call yourselves an english teachers, huh? Do you have any teaching credentials? How about real college degrees? How come 90% of you cannot verify your college transcrips? We all know that you used to wash cars for a buck back home, never had a decent relationship with women of your own, probably rejected by them all your pathetic lives. You can't speak a lick of korean, all you do is drink, smoking dope and stalking local women day and night. All you do is bitch, complain how racist koreans are. hahhahah, yeah me thinks ya'll all losers, every single GI and civilians – we're laughing at how pathetic you are. What, you are that stupid to get a job at k mart back home? You all came here to make money doing what? Get a job at some run down, unlisenced daycare making $13 a day? That onto itself is laughable to me. To our eyes, you're just another dumb shmuck foreigner who couldn't make it in your own turf. Poor, uneducated, unconnected inner city peasant class morons. Oh yeah, the U.S army is a big fat joke. We don't need 35.000 women raping savages in our turf either. I'd rather live under north korean/chinese rule, so get your smelly butts out of my country as soon as possible, mr yankie. Go back to your bankrupt country losers!!!

KOREAN,

I just had a thought. Don't post the list of contacts for the teaching jobs. There are millions in the US out of work right now, and I read where K-mart is not doing so good. If just a small percent read this forum they may flood your country looking for these jobs. And who know about all the illegals that are in the US and out of work. They may try to head to Korea also. They made it to the US without passports, they could also go to Korea. Instead of giving the "poor, uneducated, unconnected inner city peasant class morons" a chance at all these jobs lets keep them among us.

Korean – LOL! You are too funny because you opinions are quite far fetched. But hey you know the saying – opinions are like assholes, everyone's got them.

Cheers!!

Ha, almost six years later and you have your 👿 no curfew, command sponsorship, driving privileges, and the drinky girls days are numbered here in South Korea. Now what are the problems that exist in 2011 that did not in 2005: 1. Now you can drink from sundown to sunup 24/7=More Alcoholics. 2. Now you have a bunch of spouses who think that they have a say in their GI Sponsors life= soldiers missing movement and going AWOL. 3. Don’t get me started on the Driving Privileges. Just last month USFK as a whole had nine DUIs that is about half of the DUIs for calendar year 2007 in ONE MONTH. 4. The drinky girls are now the woman in the apartment next to you married to the GI and they are throwing parties during the weekend and fighting all week because she and her GI husband saw one of the guys she used to blow in their apartment complex and she said “hello”. 5. Which leads me to my final point: Now that we let the GI’s have all of the freedoms that you so badly wanted for so long we have taken the problems out of the ville and put it on the South Korean streets and into their residential areas. I live in one of these residential areas. I was dumb enough to let my wife of seven years find this new apartment complex herself instead of showing more interest in that process. Now I am just counting the days until our lease agreement is up, because I have to deal with Drunk GIs every freakin day of the week. Fights over who was screwing his wife or slut friend first. Dog Crap everywhere because, Hey I’m an American and this ain’t my country so I don’t give a $&!+!!! Ya Sharp, Way To Go with the tour normalization thing that you and your butt boy Bell did here. How can you have tour normalization in a country that is still technically at war??? Hey I got an idea Sharp why not come live in my apartment in Area I for a week and I will live in your house on the hill at Yongsan. I wonder how long it will take for these liberties you fought so hard for the GIs to have get revoked!!! Have a glorious 2ID day!!!! Standing ready to fight tonight, ya right with their spouses and taxi drivers!!! What a joke!!! 👿