ROK Army Sexual Assault Update

I thought a suspended sentence means no jail time at all as long as he doesn't get caught doing something else illegal within that time frame???

I had an adult student in his mid-20s who told me about 15 Korean women are raped and killed a year by GIs, but it is covered up.

I went to ask a Korean female teacher I worked with (35 years old or so) about it, because I would frequently talk to her about things that were confusing, becasue she had a level head, and she said, "That sounds about right."

Every once in a while when GI crimes came up in a class, which it did a couple of times a month as new students rotated in, if the class had a lot of people I'd been teaching and was comfortable with, I'd ask them, and the general idea was that 15 might be high, but it wasn't far from the mark.

So basically the guy is on probation for 4 years and if he doesn't sexually assault anyone else during this time he will see no jail time? If so that is jacked up but I doubt anyone in USFK will raise stink about it.

Hmmm…

I remember the big knee-jerk reactions that happened after a Korean "murdered an American major". Ahhh… another fond memory of head-in-ass USFK leadership.

That is when the Wingman policy at Osan started… couldn't go downtown without a date. That changed to be a nighttime-thing-only a few days later when everyone realized that a lot of officers lived off-base and needed someone to escort them to the main gate… and their escort needed an escort when leaving the main gate… ahhh, levels of complexity too great for uninspired leadership.

(please correct anything from the following story you don't feel is right).

Then details leaked out that the major actually had TWO people with him when he was stabbed… hence the Wingman policy was a sham (just like the .10 BAC and No Girls In Rooms policies).

Oh, yes, and his two buddies were doctors… as was he. Three doctors can't save a stab victim but your mandatory drunk Load Toad wingman is there to help you. Uh-huh.

Then it came out that our fearless major tried to show off to his friends how much shitty-asshole-GI Korean he could speak after a week or so in-country… so, he spoke the most rude and offensive bar-whore Korean he had learned to a helpless down-and-out homeless person rummaging through trash on the street.

Except the homeless person wasn't so helpless. He had the deadly combination of Korean Pride and a kitchen knife. The major got the Gift of Cold Steel in the liver to assist him in minding his own fucking business. Happy Birthday, loudmouth round-eye motherfucker.

Osan's Wingman Policy, of course, didn't address the facts that there were TWO wingmen, they were medically trained and it was something like 3 in the afternoon.

Nobody in USFK suggested a Keep Your Fucking Mouth Shut training class… of course. That would too easily solve most of the problems between GIs and Koreans… much more than Buddies, Wingmen, curfews or BAC limits.

Once again, this is the story I remember from a pretty good source about 6 years ago… with the only addition being my smart-assed slant. I am curious if it represents what really happened.

—

After writing this, I decided I'd better do some looking on my own to see if any facts fit my memory… turns out, they do.

Major Dave Berry was walking with TWO other doctors. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2000/n07212000…

A little more info here that gives the setup: https://www.ausa.org/webpub/DeptArmyMagazine.nsf/…

Of course USFK says the attack was unprovoked… something I have never seen in Korea… and a suspect statement considering the homeless man was in Iteawon and had a number of random targets throughout the day.

Somebody who was involved in the investigation told me the whole story including Marjor Berry showing off his Korean language skills. As my memory was accurate for the rest of the story, I imagine this aspect is accurate, too.

Don't bitch at me as I am just repeating what I heard from a good source.

Anybody wish to confirm or deny this?

As for this Korean on American GI sexual assault, I would hope USFK would back her in a civil action against him. This may or may not gain some needed publicity but it will, most probably, result in a settlement that will allow her to pay off some credit card debt.

usinkorea,

Try this: Give homework to your students to collect information about the numerous rapes and killings done by American GIs in 2006. Tease them mercilessly when they fail to produce results. O.K. Don't. Be nice and innocently ask for explanations. Report your results here. I'm curious about what rationalizations they may give.

J!

Chickenhead wrote:

"Then it came out that our fearless major tried to show off to his friends how much shitty-asshole-GI Korean he could speak after a week or so in-country… so, he spoke the most rude and offensive bar-whore Korean he had learned to a helpless down-and-out homeless person rummaging through trash on the street."

PROVE IT. It is disgusting that you would slander a dead person who cannot speak for himself. The Korean papers at the time printed the murderer's allegation that the doctor had insulted him, but those same papers described the man as mentally unstable. Koreans who attack or kill foreigners are almost always described that way.

You claim to have inside information but won't give any specifics. Why the heck should anyone believe an anonymous poster?

"Of course USFK says the attack was unprovoked… something I have never seen in Korea…"

Well, unprovoked hostility is something I and other foreigners have experienced. I was threatened on several occasions and cornered twice. A 6'4" Moroccan husband of a colleague was periodically harassed and assaulted on the street by Korean tough guys who wanted to prove to their friends that they could beat up the foreign giant. He just ignored these fools because he knew he'd wind up in jail if he tried to defend himself.

Chickenhead, you're probably one of those Koreans who believes internet rumors about how the two GIs deliberately ran over the two girls and laughed about it later. The internet rumor mongers, like you, claimed to have inside info, citing KATUSA acquaintances as their source.

Sonagi,

Deep breath. Relax.

I repeated what I heard from a member of the American military who was involved in the investigation. Obviously, I cannot "prove it" as it was a conversation that happened years ago. After a quick Internet search, I found my memory to be correct in all other aspects of the conversation.

I stand by my memory of the conversation. Once again, I offer anyone with direct knowledge of the incident to "to confirm or deny" this version of the story and to "please correct anything from the following story you don’t feel is right".

Your emotional denial may be based on fewer facts than my statements which, true or not, were made to me by someone involved in the original incident indicating to me that, despite public statements, USFK believed the major said something which was perceived as provoking by the homeless man.

In answer to your post, I will add that many people learn a bad word or two in Korean at, or before, arrival. I have seen the "I have been here 10 days and look what I can say" mentality many, many times. So has everyone else here.

I will further add that a Korean homeless person, digging through trash, suddenly standing up and committing a random and unprovoked stabbing on a group of 3 men walking by in the middle of the day does not ring true to me.

Just knowing people, if I had to bet money on an "unprovoked attack" or the major saying, "ship-sae-ki," I know where my chips are going.

I would further like to point out that a main intention of the post was to show how far Osan leadership was from reality at that time (and now) as their Wingman Policy consists of groups of two at night. The undisputed facts of the incident which provoked the Wingman Policy concerned a group of three doctors in the middle of the day. Am I the only one who sees the irony here?

I would also like to point out that I have seen GIs run their mouths to Koreans in a provoking manner (as they do to each other) yet Osan (and maybe USFK) has not invented a program to combat this behavior.

Next issue. The female American GI was not raped; she was "touched" against her will in a semi-public setting. Big difference. (Technically, I see this happening to Filipinas every time I go to a juicy bar.)
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&a…

It seems YOU are the one spreading Internet rumor. Shame.

But don't think I have no compassion for her. Being awoken to this kind of thing would be irritating, bordering on traumatic. USFK has a duty to insure servicemembers can sleep without fear of their titties being felt up. The real story here is, "How did a Korean male slip into an American all-female barracks at 3am with a flashlight?" I'm guessing that security is tighter at an Ewha Womens' University dorm.

On a final note, I am always interested when someone makes a claim such as they were "threatened on several occasions and cornered twice". I have lived in Korea for many years, traveled all over the country, drank heavily in the "roughest" neighborhoods, etc… and I have NEVER even felt uncomfortable.

Twice, I have been randomly insulted (by smack-talking punks, not unlike smack-talking GIs). Both times, I gave an innocent look, bowed slightly and said in Korean, "Why did you speak badly to me? You don't even know me." Both times, the loudmouth put his head down while his buddies laughed at him and apologized to me.

Based on my experience, and the experience of other foreigners I admire and respect, I just cannot understand those who get in "situations" with Koreans.

J!

On what GI Korea was saying about not getting involved, that is one of the things that irritates me greatly about the common GI street fight story where there is usually a Korean mob involved.

I used to live above an older bar area in Wonju, and I saw confrontations all the time. I also saw women confrontations at E-Mart almost every Saturday and Sunday.

Nobody jumped in in almost 100% of the cases.

The worst was when I was leaving to go to teach class, and I saw a university-aged male just kicking the shit out of a middle school or early high school student.

Normally in Korea, I never saw confrontations move to using fists or the like (except the women), but this older kid was bashing the younger guys face in, and the younger guy was just standing there not even raising his hands to defend himself.

I was far away up the street approaching, but nobody would do anything. Before I got there, some guy in a passing delivery truck finally stopped in the middle of the street and got out yelling and walking toward the fight, and then one of the older boy's friends grabbed him and drug him off.

The truck guy got back in the truck and pulled off, and then the people just stood watching as this young boy poured blood out his nose and mouth.

I quickly walked across the street and found a roll of toilet paper and paid for it at the counter, and during all this time, when I got back across the street, people were still just staring at this boy as his face poured blood.

I know there are areas in the US where "don't involved" is still strong.

I know in America nothing getting involved is not such a bad idea, because you never know when one of the people involved is going to have a gun and blow your head off, but come on……

@ChickenHead:

No emotional denial, but sensible mistrust of someone who:

1) shows hostility towards American crime victims. Even if one gives any credence to the story about the doctor 'getting what he deserved,' the female sexual assault victim was blameless, yet you felt the need to make snide digs about credit card debt and titties getting felt up:

"USFK has a duty to insure servicemembers can sleep without fear of their titties being felt up. The real story here is, “How did a Korean male slip into an American all-female barracks at 3am with a flashlight?” I’m guessing that security is tighter at an Ewha Womens’ University dorm."

Owing to fire regulations, US military barracks are probably not padlocked like Korean university dorms, and that's no exaggeration. While I was in Korea, dormitory doors were chained shut at night.

2) claims to have inside info but does not provide any substantiation; you doubt my experiences yet expect me to believe your hearsay.

3) cannot distinguish a married middle-aged doctor from an 18-yr-old kid, who would be more likely to act with foolish bravado.

"

Based on my experience, and the experience of other foreigners I admire and respect, I just cannot understand those who get in “situations” with Koreans."

Likewise, I know many Koreans who've lived in North America. Some have had no problems while others have been insulted by strangers. I don't presume that a Korean who's been called a chink somehow asked for it.

Chickenhead,

As a woman who was groped in Korea and had my breast PUNCHED by a stranger in Indonesia, I take offense to talk about "titties being felt up." Even you mean it in a general way, it is still a very insensitive way to refer to a sexual assault.

"Grow up. Korea is an entry-level country for avoiding hassle where the majority of people are polite, respectful, kind and have enough money/education to want nothing much from you except for you to mind your own business.

I’m still having a hard time finding pity for those who get into frequent conflict with the locals."

I don't need to "grow up." I'm not the one making calloused, insensitive quips about fondling titties. YOU need to grow up and take your vulgar bar talk elsewhere. No wonder you're so quick to judge the dead doctor, given your own crude language.

Otherwise, I agree with what you have written. I lived in Korea almost a decade, so several unpleasant incidents over the course of ten years – an average of less than one per year – does not constitute "frequent conflict."

The ramblings about Cambodia, Burma, etc. are completely irrelevant to this discussion thread about sexual assaults against US soldiers.

"He who hasn’t yapped some smartassed comment to show off to his friends may cast the first stone."

Then let me cast the first stone.

USFK believed the major said something which was perceived as provoking by the homeless man.

Kind of different from:

Then it came out that our fearless major tried to show off to his friends how much shitty-asshole-GI Korean he could speak after a week or so in-country… so, he spoke the most rude and offensive bar-whore Korean he had learned to a helpless down-and-out homeless person rummaging through trash on the street.

no?

It "came out" right away that the Korean man "perceived" he was being "insulted" and thus justified in his "righteous Korean rage" to stab a guy to death.

You didn't need "inside" information or substantial hearsay to come up with that.

But, in the first statement, you piss all over this dead guy's grave with glee – pretty much saying he deserved what he got or should have expected what he got or that he was a turd asshole whatever the case might be — just as everybody else (who you don't respect in the expat community) is most likely a shitbag who gets themselves into the trouble they get into in Korea

—– as if you had been standing beside him when the event happened and thus had a pretty definitive idea of what went down.

No……wait…..it wasn't that……..It was your intuitive knowledge gained from experience out with Koreans and the shitbags that led you to describe the MDs death as something he brought on himself and makes you go out of your way to belittle a woman who just got her tits touched and say that was pretty much USFK's fault for not protecting her better….

What an ass…

So, USFK investigators decided that the major said something and the Korean took it as an insult and decided to stab him to death…

The Korean press reported that much, but let's consider who was doing the talking:

Did the other MD friends of the Major say, "Well, I told him not to be cussing the Korean with his shitty-asshole-GI Korean like that, that he was only asking for trouble, but you know Major X, he was just an asshole that way. I told him he was asking for it, and boy did he get it…."

Or, perhaps the investigators who told you the guy deserved it got the information from Koreans who were passing by:

"I couldn't believe the shit that was coming out of that asshole GI's mouth. What a motherfucker!! If it had been me, I'd have grabbed that knife and stabbed him too! Fucking bastard!!"

Or, perhaps it was told by the homeless, mentally ill guy himself – maybe he had a tape recorder with him and got it all on tape – and once hearing the type of language the asshole MD was using, they concluded he deserved a blade in the liver….

Or, maybe, all you heard was that the homeless guy said that the Major insulted him and it really pissed the guy off so he felt justified in attacking the major.

And you decided that was good enough for you to casually spit all over the guy's memory, no?

Well, but then you say you were't saying it was justified and that nothing could have justified a knife to the liver.

You were just pissing on the guy. Not saying he deserved it. Just letting us know you are pretty sure you would despise the guy, like you despise those other scumbags who "frequently get into situations in Korea" and don't defuse them, but puff out their chests instead, and are just begging to get stabbed or beaten or whatnot.

I mean, it is most likely the MDs and Sonagi's fault and mine and the few other expats I know who have been accosted in Korea. It never happened to you or the people "you respect" —- you know, those few non-asshole expats that manage to get to Korea who have to suffer with the masses of ignorant hick or ghetto types invading the country.

But, as you say, this is certainly a waste of time….

Anybody who can be so gung-ho in describing how a GI deserved or should have expected to get stabbed —- and say that he has routinely seen GIs piss all over Koreans in public —– but has never heard of or encountered a

Korean accosting someone "unprovoked" in the street ——- and equates the touching of bar girls to a male sneaking into a female dorm and physically assualting a female —

is a lost cause……..like in saying…

But don’t think I have no compassion for her. Being awoken to this kind of thing would be irritating, bordering on traumatic.

Gee. Don't hurt yourself there —- wouldn't want you to strain a muscle trying to give the most likely bitch GI the same amount of consideration you do the poor homeless of Korea who have to live with the GIs pissing on them all the time….

And yeah, I've always found this kind of odd too:

and I have NEVER even felt uncomfortable.

But it isn't that hard for me to imagine that someone who could be so crass about the MD stabbing and extend so much to the poor Korean homeless man – and then turn around and water down the sexual assault case to just some woman being felt up – and try hard to find a way to say it should have been expected too – I mean, even Ewah U's security would have prevented this – it's kind of USFK's fault, no???-

Yes. I met a couple of people like you in Korea. I worked with one.

A Korean female friend I had met in France came to visit me. She was remarkably beautiful. And as we were walking around the streets of Wonju (I had only been in Korea a couple of weeks) – within two or three hours of each other, I was accosted by 2 Korean men in their 20s at bus stops.

In both cases, the guys were visible furious and got right up in my face. Both with their noses almost touching my face. Neither said a word, but both had clinched fists and were right on top of me to the point people began staring.

In the first case, I was too shocked and stupid to know what to do and just stood there. In the 2nd case, I gingerly backed off, which wasn't easy with the guy on top of me, and we walked away.

My friend said I needed to leave Wonju and move to Seoul or Pusan where you wouldn't have such trouble.

But, my good Canadian friend I was teaching assured us both we must have misunderstood. He walked with Korean female students in the street from time to time, and he'd never felt any pressure. I must have just been over-reacting. There must have been some other reason why my friend decided we wouldn't work around the city any more but take a taxi right away. It was all just a big misunderstanding…

At least you can admit something negative did happen —- it was just my fault, right?

Right or wrong, I was asking for it.

What a ass…

I'm sure I was begging for it too…..I mean, how dare I walk the streets of Korea at around noon and stand at a bus stop talking to a pretty Korean girl I knew?

Didn't I understand Korean culture!!

Why the hell would someone like me come to Korea and not "understand" how some Koreans feel about mixed couples!!

It is me — the waekuk – who basically causes such problems. I should know better. I was just asking for it….

🙂

Put me and the female GI who just got her breast fondled down on your list of shitbags together (along with Songagi)…

I feel quiet comfortable being on that list….

It's an honor to be opposite a turd.

And don't let that ruin your day…..

…..I get the feeling you probably use that line a lot, right?

Probably around all those dickhead waekuks who you despise – as opposed to those few you admire and respect – you know – the ones who have taken the time to know the real Korea – those few 1 or 2 good ones out there…..

Like the Canadian I worked with….which reminds me of this:

I bet I could really push your buttons if I made the argument

Yep. I think I've met a couple of your replicas out there.

Oh, why do you respond? Ahhhh boredom…

"I'm so much superior to all this, but I guess I'll slum awhile…

Me? I insulted the dead? Moi? Why, gosh, nothing I said was offensive! See, this is why those Koreans wanted to bother you. You are just to dense to understand. You can't even read plain English. Why so upset? Tsssst…..You're just another one of those……It's a pity Korea has to witness so many like you coming off the planes….."

I actually got along well enough with the Canadian described above, but I also told him he liked to "push people's buttons."

"Don't let it ruin your day…."

Right, right….

🙂

Wow. You ARE a hater.

It seems my "filthy, vulgar language" has stolen the attention from my message and thrust your focus upon it's delivery. Needlessly, I might add, as a basic familiarity with a few common literary devices might allow a deeper understanding of it's content which is accentuated and not obscured by it's form.

Ah… but I forgot. The biggest crime in today's PC society is to offend. And you have been offended. Your indignation at an apparent lack of respect for victims of sexual violence and the undefending dead has clouded your judgment and substituted emotion for reason as you seek to determine the possibility or probability of the validity of my statements.

The repeated angry references to fondled titties in the last few posts suggest it's great importance to dark and lurking past demons impatiently waiting to angrily show their presence at the slightest provocation. We are offended by what we fear as if anger can mask our insecurity.

To avoid unnecessary damage, may I suggest you check your emotional baggage at the door.

Moving on…

On a blog written by soldiers, for soldiers and about soldiers (and those around soldiers), I am thinking the primary audience is somewhat familiar with vulgarities. Unless Ol' Devil PC has recently crept through all ranks of our armed forces, military English (at least informally) contained a higher percentage of vulgarities than, say, a Sunday school EFL class for Korean middle school girls. Most soldiers are no strangers to words like "titties" or concepts such as "grabbing a handful" when the rare chance arises.

And, while I am certainly capable of writing in the boring and vulgarity-free English which I speak on a daily basis, I'm not quite feeling any guilt for using vulgarities for color and effect in this context as I might if I were addressing a more anally retentive audience.

If you are so terribly offended, you could run along and play on a church blog. You could also choose to ignore it.

Rabid oversensitivity only entices many to speak more enthusiastically of groped titties and punched boobies much in the way the spas kid yelling, "Am not!" encourages the other children to reply, "Are so!"

But kindly overlook my imperfections as a human being.

In accordance with your sensitivities, allow me to rephrase my original post upon which your comments are encouraged.

1. It has been claimed Dr. Berry said something offensive to the homeless man which was provocation for the stabbing. Does anyone have any information on this?

2. While no amount of money can compensate for the ferocity and viciousness involved in the terrible sexual rampage against an innocent sleeping female American GI, one would hope USFK would back her in a civil action to recover some form of monetary damages for the years of suffering and trauma this will bring upon her. Further, I hope pressure is put upon USFK to insure proper safeguards are put in place to negate the possibility of this type of incident occurring in the future.

I hope this satisfies your requirements for a sensitive and respectful post and we can put this needless flame war behind us before we are reminded of that picture of the mentally handicapped child running in the race bordered by an explanation of the pitfalls of arguing on the Internet.

Perhaps, in the future, your vitriol against casualness in dealing with sexual assault would be better channeled toward the human trafficking and forced prostitution happening in front of places like Osan Air Base where titties are groped, boobies are felt, pussies are banged and asses are reamed… and not always with girls who are one hundred percent willing.

I couldn't help but notice a lack of comments with your name attached when those topics come up from time to time. But, of course, it is never to late to do something other than complain.

J!

With respect to your inquiry about the stabbing death, I spent a whole two minutes searching at the Korea Times and found these articles about the incident:

http://search.hankooki.com/times/times_view.php?t… stabbed &path=hankooki1/kt_nation/200007/t20000707171655411186.htm&media=kt

http://search.hankooki.com/times/times_view.php?t… stabbed &path=hankooki1/kt_nation/200006/t200006271754334111359.htm&media=kt

http://search.hankooki.com/times/times_view.php?t… stabbed &path=hankooki1/kt_nation/200006/t200006261704524111345.htm&media=kt

If the links don't work, go to the homepage and put "doctor stabbed" into the search box and make sure the beginning date is set to the year 2000.

After reading earlier posts here and at the Lost Nomad, I understand you now, ChickenHead. Love and Peace from your sister Sonagi! 🙂

GI,

Can you free my last comment from the spam trap?

On sex slavery —

I'd like to see USFK do as GI Korea says and place all bars or other places with foreign girls working off limits and enforce it by busting the GIs who go into them.

It would cause more trouble than what the one base commander got up in Dongduchong, if I remember correctly, who placed some locations off limits for selling alcohol to minors. The ville shut itself down a few times and put up banners in protest.

If I were the USFK commander, I'd place the bars with foriegn prostitutes off limits – and when the city and then national government complained, I'd tell them to sit on my thumb and spin (—describing it as such to show I'm not much on PC either)…

GIs who go to places where foreign prostitutes work, knowing that a significant percentage of them are not staying in Korea and doing what they do willingly, should be ashamed of themselves, and the soldiers who understand the situation should exert some peer pressure on those others.

What would be really great is if I were the president of Korea.

Then, I'd order the immigration people to stop issuing entertainment visas like that, and I'd have the embassies in the SE Asian and Russian area nations where most of the sex slaves (and non-slave prostitutes) come from to be more careful in issuing visas of any kind that involve females from those nations.

Then, I'd have my police in areas where their are USFK villes, as well as in other areas well-known for prostitution and that have foreign sex workers too, bust up the joints. I'd have raid after raid, and I'd put the business people profitting off the sex industry in jail.

If I happened to catch some GIs in the act as I was raiding these places, I'd prosecute them under Korean law.

Of course, this would take a sea-change in prosecutorial habit because I would also be throwing Korean Johns (or Kims) in jail as well as the Korean and foreign prostitutes (the ones who were most likely there to make a buck instead of being held against their will) and the business owners.

If I were in charge, I'd attack the problem big time.

And I would be a lot more effective at it if I were a Korean in some of the key positions in Korean government….like the president or the governor of Kyonggi Province, or the mayor of Paju or Seoul or the police chief of one of these cities…..

Being the head of USFK, I could crack down on my own by sending the MPs out to watch the off limits clubs and grab any GIs I found sneaking in or out.

That would have an impact.

But, the USFK boss doesn't have the real authority to attack the problem like it should be attacked.

How many times can I use "their" for "there" or "your" for "you're" and so on?

I've gotten worse with it over the past few months.

I think my mind is subconsciously rebelling against all the brainless grammar lessons I've been seeing out in the schools…..yeah…..that's it….that's the ticket….

I'm very sorry to hear about your father. Love and strength to you and your family during this difficult time.

Thanks for your thoughts…

@ ChickenHead,

So you're a public activist? Real name? Links? I'm curious to read more.

You seriously suggested writing a letter to my Congressman about human trafficking? I've already written several letters about the war in Iraq and participated in one anti-war demonstration after moving near DC a few months ago. Yes, a large volume of mail on a topic can make a difference. A handful does not. Moreover, no one can fight against every injustice. My big issue is the war in Iraq, which has cost hundreds of thousands of lives and plunged a country into sectarian violence. If you really are an activist, power to you, brother. In the meantime, I will continue my modest anti-war activism.

As for the articles I provided, the police also described the man as "mentally unstable" and "deranged." Maybe the doctor did say something. Maybe he didn't. Even the police said they couldn't be sure what happened. Given Korean press coverage of USFK incidents, if there was substantiating evidence that the doctor provoked the fight, it likely would have appeared in the stories. The murder happened at 3 PM and there were other bystanders besides the three doctors.

Please be careful about making generalizations based on a few internet posts. Many of the Koreans I know would be deeply offended by your vulgar language and description of the murder. Maybe you think Koreans are "easily offended" too. You seem to be one of those expats who thinks he understands and respects Koreans more than his fellow expats. "They think every stare…they think every Korean…they think every 5-yr-old…they think every…" If you are affiliated with the military, then I can understand why you might feel that way. As a former university lecturer, I interacted mostly with well-educated, well-mannered Koreans and expatriates. I knew a few expatriates who fit those "they think" statements but not many.

BTW, I really do want to know more about your activism. I can't do an internet search if I don't know your real name.

First, thanks for the thoughts about my dad, and I mean that.

I would also say I would not say you as a whole are a bleepity bleep, but I do find your thoughts on the topic at hand to be a fairly sized and stinking pile of poo…

And I did and still do find your crass expressions concerning the dead MD (and less so the female GI) to be rather full of shit and deserving a retort along the same lines.

And yes, if you were one of my friends and we were out at a bar and you said something like that, you would get pretty much exactly what I've said so far in pretty much exactly that same manner, regardless of whose time it was to buy the next round of drinks, but if you were generally just some stranger, I'd probably just chalk you up as a lost cause and make my exit.

Apart from delivery, our basic ideas don’t seem so divergent.

No. That is dead wrong, and it is approaching the heart of the issue.

I figured since you were into non-PC exchanges, you'd be able to see my points and point of view and how it is opposed to yours, but I guess I'll have to scale it back —- and just stick with the condescending tone to align with you again —- and see if communication is improved.

it is Korea’s country and not America’s country.

This is the heart of it, and it is an opinion I believe is complete bullshit.

And it is one of the items that comes up a couple of times a year in the expat Korea blogsphere – and I voice my opinion about it pretty much the same each time…

It is this core philosophy of yours — that so easily allows you to piss all over the dead MD GI. And I attack your crass demeaning of his death, because he can't, and unless the female GI runs across this, she can't either, and you deserved what you gave out thrown back at you.

All that stuff about how you were simply trying to discuss whether the doctor said something bad to the homeless man and how USFK needs to protect its female soldiers better is a crock — as much as this meaningless peace out stuff you use as a shield apparently to try to prevent people from coming back at you once your through dropping your charge verbiage.

I guess it is an effective strategy at times — Pissing on a dead guy's grave and belittling a woman who was sexually assaulted who is highly unlikely to come across what you have to say is a more sure fire thing, except if somebody like me decides to take offense and shoot back.

But, you went on from there.

Your tone and attitude you demonstrated fits exactly with your core idea that Korea is not the expat's nation and the expat should shut up and learn to "endure" it (as the Koreans would say) – and the only people who don't learn to get along with it are most likely just asshole foreigners to begin with who should have expected/deserved whatever treatment they got.

And you feel so strongly about this, you justify Korean bigotry against even yourself.

That is fine enough for you and whoever else wants to live by that philsophy (and I have seen a few (though not many) expats in Korea who did try hard to live by it.

If that makes the sun shine for you each day in Korea when you get out of bed, more power to you, but I feel just fine firing back at that attitude when it is extended out to others — you know —- that mass group of expats you feel superior to who you denigrate – like the doctor, the female GI, and I guess pretty much any other expat you hear talking about some problem they might have had out among the Koreans.

It's Korea's country – so just shut up and accept it —-

I hate this same attitude here in the States.

I live in an area that has seen a massive influx of Hispanics to work in the carpet industry: immigrants, migrants, permanent residents, illegals, the works.

And if I were sitting in a bar, and I saw some white guy deciding it was his right by birth and nationality to start a bunch of shit with some Hispanics – say a Hispanic male with a white girl – because they are probably illegal and this in not their country to begin with and whatever, I'd feel the same way about them as I do you when you write about how it is acceptable when Koreans do that to immigrants in their own nation.

And if the person being the bigot was my friend, I'd cuss him about it right there in front of everybody, and depending on how far the bigot was pushing things, there is a fair chance I'd stand up and say something to him about it even if everybody involved was a complete stranger to me.

Which means or can be extended into saying that I believe this part below is BS too:

Before you hit your keyboard and scream UNFAIRNESS, be aware we do this in America as well and nobody thinks anything of it… in fact there are even different standards based on skin color.

Nobody thinks anything of it….

Hmmmmm….

Fascinating….

Maybe I'm starting to understand what you think about blacks and Hispanics and Asians and whatever minority that doesn't match your own skin color? Is that it?

You might want to explain a little more about what you mean here, because I could start trying to logically extend the meaning based on what I've read so far in this thread, and it is starting to sound like it wouldn't lead to a pretty place.

It is starting to paint an even more unflattering image of you in my mind, and I'd like some more specifics before going there.

Now, one of the reasons I live in Korea is that it ISN’T cool to be an asshole like it is in the States. We can discuss this in great detail in the forum of your choice… but I imagine most people know what I’m talking about.

No. Please. Extend yourself. We're getting somewhere, and I find it terribly interesting, but I am also confused (really – I'm not trying to be a smartass – at least not right here)…

You say Americans in Korea should hold themselves up to higher standards, but you also seem to be suggesting that Koreans do/should hold Americans (and other foreigners) to higher or different standards.

You are also saying that American society holds — which is it — immirgrants or any non-white skin color? —- to a higher or different standard, A-N-D nobody minds that.

But, you say that one thing you like about Korea is that it isn't cool to be an asshole like it is in the States….

I'm lost……..which type of asshole are we talking about?

First, though, I think a fair porition of Americans would object to the idea that nobody in American objects to bigoted ideas like mixed couples are offensive.

I think there is a significant portion of the American people who think holding immigrants to a higher standard and accosting them when they don't live up to that standard is wrong.

I'm lost…

You say it is fine if a Korean bigot gets in your face because you are with a pretty Korean female, and you expected that kind of thing, and you were asking for it to cut against a common Korean prejudice…and you simply got what you were asking for…

But, you say, for example, I guess, if an American bigot started getting in the Korean woman's face for being with an American, it would be wrong…

….or right?

—— you said Americans can't act like Koreans in Korea — that they shouldn't expect to be able to act like Koreans in Korea – and that you belittle those who do act like Koreans when you don't belittle the Koreans for the same actions — and the mixed couple was the most concrete example.

So, if a Korean is in the US with a white member of the opposite sex, does that mean an American bigot has free reign on them?

When you say it isn't cool to be an asshole in Korea as it is in the States, what do you mean? Give some examples of actions, because I'm sitting here reading and rereading this comment along with the others, and I can't figure out what you mean….

I was with you fully when you were saying that expats can't act just like Koreans and expect not to face some Korean wrath ——- for those very same acts —- because it isn't our country….

…then down a little later you are saying you like Korea more because it isn't cool to be an asshole in Korea as it is in the States…

Which would seem to imply that you are there saying that the expats in Korea are acting worse than Koreans and that is why it is uncool and they get called for it?

Or, is this where your higher standards kick in?

The foreigner in Korea (and the US) must act better than the natives, and if they don't, if the natives decide to call the foreigner up for not toeing the "you are the foreign guest here, buddy!" line – then it is just natural and acceptable that the bigot gets in the foreigner's face?

And that includes conforming to Korean society's standards – whatever they might be – like on mixed couples.

I need clarifiction…

Next,

They are the same people who think every stare on the street is due to critical scrutiny

No. Off again.

Where you and I are on the same page is how we at least say we have handled confrontations in Korea.

I too "endured".

I've even had my shirt sleeve and chest pocket pushed and pulled on by a drunk Korean, much like I have seen drunk Korean men push and pull on each other in disagreements, and I simply "endured" until his grip relaxed and I could make my exit.

Do you consider that an encounter? Or does it have to escalate into punches or kicks or slaps before you count it as an encounter and then it is the expats fault for letting it escalate?

I generally found if I went out and about in Korea a good bit by myself, sightseeing and taking pictures or walking home after leaving from a night out with Korean friends or students, I would have 1 or 2 run ins a year with a Korean with a chip on his shoulder.

Certainly not enough to warrant leaving the country or ascribing such behavior to all or most Koreans.

But certainly not the kind of attention that should be "understood" because it is that Korean's homeland and I'm a guest.

Next,

They think every 5 year-old who says “fuck you”, while flipping a bird, fully understands and means it instead of just trying to provoke a reaction based on what he saw on the latest Hollywood movie.

First, this whole last part is moving again to saying that you naturally seem to label anybody you hear who has had an incident in Korea the same as someone who "always" gets offended by just about everything.

Back in the mid and late 1990s, I did run across a few expat teachers who were unnerved by being stared at. That was back also when the ESL market had not exploded and there were far fewer expats around. The guy I replaced in Wonju had been the first and only native English speaking teacher in the whole city a year and a half before (around 1994).

But, those were the exceptions. Most of the expats I knew didn't complain about every little stare, but did manage to find fault with Koreans when – say – they were with a Korean female and some bigoted Korean male decided to say something about it….

Anyway, back to the 5 year old…

Fascinating…

Maybe some of us stop to think that the 5 year old is applying both what he just saw in a Hollywood movie with a hefty dose of bigotry he got from home? which might have been reinforced here and there in the pop culture and in the schools?

I'd feel safe in saying that any 5 year-old white kid in my neighborhood who used some derogatory Spanish slang they picked up from Spanish TV or some movie with a lot of Hispanics in it (or mimicing some of the old Luney Toones Speedy Gonzales cartoons) — was expressing some racism picked up in the home — that is part of a larger problem in my area (though we can debate its extent here (or the same thing in Korea).

A couple of clarifications:

1. My anti-human trafficking/forced prostitution was much more quiet, for obvious reasons, when I was in front of Osan Air Base. Apart from customer testimony, the only thing that can be publicly documented is a clever and humorous e-mail I wrote to my mailing list on Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:40:22 -0800 (PST) explaining the juicy game and Osan Air Base's involvement (filled with sarcasm and irony but no vulgarity) which got forwarded around the Air Force. It brought unwanted attention and probably is one of the bricks in the wall of my demise.

Although you wish to draw some sort of conclusion concerning the timing of my more public fight against human trafficking, forced prostitution and corrupt members of the United States military who ensure it continues, don't confuse the messenger with the message.

My statements and conclusions are right or wrong. There are bars engaged in human trafficking and forced prostitution with a customer base of only United States servicemembers that are not being placed off limits in front of Osan Air Base. Or there aren't. Attack this, not me or my motivations. It is happening or it isn't.

If you are truly against sexual crimes with the same ferocity you used against my choice of words in describing one, you should support me on this issue and not try to undermine the message by looking for ways to nitpick the messenger.

2. My thoughts on Westerners in Korea should be clarified.

I am more critical of foreigners' than locals' behavior in Korea for a number of reasons; none of which are because I am a Korean apologist.

The primary reason is that this is Korea, it is filled with Koreans and it has a long history of doing things the Korean Way. My interaction with Korea mirrors my expectations for non-Americans in the United States.

I expect foreigners in America to contribute what they can, not try to change my country into what they left behind, stay out of trouble and keep their critical mouthes shut about what Americans do in America. While I am thankful for the positive cultural contributions of tequila and backbacon, I don't want to hear Mexicans complaining there are no government forms in Spanish and I don't want to hear Canadians complaining there are too many guns. Gun-free Canada and Spanish-speaking Mexico are just a border away. Off you go.

This doesn't mean I gush about everything Korean. But, as a guest, I don't have the right to forcefully change anything and, like with any guest, complaining is not appreciated. I put up, shut up and try to minimize it's affect on me. And, in the end, no matter how many times a pushy ajuma gets an elbow in the gut, I'm guessing the crowd will still try to get on the subway or elevator before the other crowd gets off.

But there is hope. Korean society is evolving rather rapidly and, for the most part, in a positive way (children's behavior being a notable exception). If I don't like the direction it goes, there are several hundred other countries to choose from until I find one where I don't feel the need to bitch, bitch, bitch about my host nation and the people who live there.

Leading through exemplary behavior can be my biggest contribution (several of my Korean friends now open the car doors for their wives after seeing my example (well, after the wives saw my example)).

However, as a foreigner in Korea, I have the right to push for higher standards in foreigners-in-Korea behavior (as, presumably, they have the right to tell me to go shit in my hat). Foreigners who come to Korea and cause needless trouble make my life in Korea needlessly more difficult.

Foreigners in Korea draw more attention due to being foreigners. A higher degree of scrutiny concerning their actions happens… fair or not, like it or not. For this reason a higher standard of public behavior is necessary for foreigners, such as Americans, who have nothing to gain by being noticed as assholes… especially in a world where Brand America is becoming increasingly tarnished. Consider my complaints about American's bad behavior a form a patriotism.

Every one of us is an ambassador from our country and it is our duty to be on our best behavior when dealing with our host nation.

"You seem to be one of those expats who thinks he understands and respects Koreans more than his fellow expats."

In a way that is true. While this does not apply to my feelings about "average" Americans in America, the majority of "average" Americans in Korea which are most noticeable are relatively young, generally from a below-average socio-economic demographic and lack the social structure that might have modified their behavior "back home".

They consist primarily of low-ranking GIs followed by English "teachers" with no long-term plans to stay. More frequently than not, they treat Korea as place to do their time or make money with no thought to the longer-term consequences of their actions as, for the most part, Korea is a consequence-free environment (cops won't arrest you for being drunk in public… or much else).

While I understand this, I'm disappointed how, as a noticeable group, it gives a bad impression to Koreans about who Westerners really are.

I don't notice the foreigners who make some effort to assimilate to Korean society as I expect foreigners in America to assimilate to American society. I notice the group of five Westerners dress in gangsta fashion standing on the street and making drunken catcalls to girls who walk by. So do the locals.

I feel I have the right to complain about this behavior.

(Disclaimer: Of course, there are THOUSANDS of brilliant and well-behaved foreigners in Korea and I am perfectly aware of this. But these aren't the ones I am speaking of, am I? I am speaking of the others who draw bad attention and seem to be followed by conflict).

I may take heat for holding this position but I can take it. Apart from personal attacks, I would love for someone to tell me why my thinking is wrong in a clear and logical way.

3. As for Korean men and Western women, there are millions and millions of Korean men. Available Western women number in the tens of thousands or less… even fewer when you subtract the ones that are working their way though the shit-hot, hard-bodied GIs that would never even talk to them in the States due to issues with fat, ugliness and stringy hair.

Young, Korean street punks with no English skills have (statistically) no chance with Western women. They might not even have much of a chance with Korean women.

You don't have to argue with everything I write, Sonagi.

J!

ChickenHead wrote:

"If I don’t like the direction it goes, there are several hundred other countries to choose from until I find one where I don’t feel the need to bitch, bitch, bitch about my host nation and the people who live there."

Said the man who makes a living off "low-ranking GIs followed by English “teachers” with no long-term plans to stay"

If you don't like the ville, there are several hundred other places to live and work in Korea, where you won't feel the need to bitch about the lowest forms of expat life.

Gee, Bluecor, do you think perhaps the fact that you agree with his opinion might have played a factor?

And which are the facts you are speaking about?

We were in a factual argument? I guess I must be dense, because I thought we ended up arguing opinion…

And I would say you are slightly off on Chickenhead's statement of his opinion too, but I see some ambiguity in the term "cultural relativism."

What do you mean specifically by that?

Chickenhead said more than simply foreigners should practice restraint.

He said it is fine if foreigners are held to a higher standard than Koreans hold themselves, and if the foreigners don't like it, tough tittie, it isn't their country and they have no basis for complaint.

A specific example he gave was being in a bar with a Korean female.

To him, he was asking for trouble and the fact he got some on a couple of occasions is no fault of Korea's but his own because he knew of the Korean prejudice beforehand.

If you think that if a swell opinion, fine.

I don't.

And if you don't give respect to people you meet naturally but make them "earn it", fine again.

“I may take heat for holding this position but I can take it. Apart from personal attacks, I would love for someone to tell me why my thinking is wrong in a clear and logical way.”

I went looking for these elusive facts…

Didn't have much luck…

I know I was attacking not facts but the manner in which he pissed on a dead man.

While Sonagi’s earlier points about Chickenhead’s bias and hypocrisies in the depiction of the 2002 murder were valid

And since you here state you agree with Sonagi's attack on that very same point, I would have to guess you mean Chickenhead's "facts" are that the dead MD GI said something disparging to the homeless guy and that is why he was stabbed to death.

But, I think both Sonagi and I stated "facts" that this he said/he said information was in the press from day one and unless his insider in the investigation gave him much more to go on, he is pissing on the man's grave unjustly —– which would be our opinion…

And it is a point of fact Chickenhead agreed it boiled down to a he said/he said situation.

So, I am wondering what the facts are you see and which part of the argument they provide a winning justification for….???….

Did Chickenhead prove with facts that foreigners should take whatever a Korean dishes out to them and endure it, because they are foreigners?

Is that the case?

Cause I looked over at bluecar's site, and that doesn't sound like Chickenhead.

I thought Chickenhead was the former soldier who had a bar (or bars) near US bases?

You can't rape the willing….

A real wet fart of a comment. Do you really think this ROK soldier did more than try to cop a feel or grab a titty?

Have you ever seen korean soldiers together? It's like the Tinkerbell Parade, they hang off each other like middle schoolers and are more interested in starcraft than getting a piece of ass.

If this guy really did dinky dunk he wouldn't have gotten off easy.

Sexual Assuault means rape. Grow a pair, wouldya?

Your lack of understanding about Texas is understandable, given your undoubtedly poor study habits. I have some friends here in Korea that would be happy to provide you some personal instruction.

Mind you, I just live in Texas, I'm not "from" Texas… but I did get there as fast as I could…

Item 1: blaming the murder victim

ChickenHead Feb 17th, 2007 at 2:28 am

"Hmmm…

Somebody who was involved in the investigation told me the
whole story including Marjor Berry showing off his Korean
language skills. As my memory was accurate for the rest of
the story, I imagine this aspect is accurate, too.

Don’t bitch at me as I am just repeating what I heard from a
good source."

Item 2: blaming the rtape victim

skippy Oct 10th, 2007 at 3:18 pm

You can’t rape the willing….

In both cases, the victim was blamed, not the perpetrator. And, in CS's previous, he as much as stated that if he had the S kicked out of him, it would be okay because he "ran his mouth" (figuratively speaking)…

This type of humor is decidedly low-brow at best and–even given Skippy's attempt to call all ROK soldiers gay was just a joke–very dangerous if the law in this country allows the use of deadly force over an insult but prohibits the use in self-defense…

I wouldn't go out at night if I were either of you…

OMG!!!!

I just stumbled on to this site and one of you mentioned a US GI who got 30 years sentence from raping a KATUSA soldier…. I WAS IN THAT PLDC NCO training school and saw all those dudes who raped him… (no, not the actual rape scene). It was Feb-March training of 2002 PLDC course in Camp Jackson.

The offenders were totaled four GIs, and I believe the one that got the 30 years is a US born Thai or Laos guy (yes I remember him clearly), and two or three blacks. I did not want to associate with them from the very beginning, as they all acted like street gangsters.

What's worst, the exact bathroom that the KATUSA got assaulted was a same creepy bathroom that I used often during the training at late night. This bathroom was located far side and was often empty.

About 2 months after the school was finished, I was called in by a Korean investigator who told me what exactly happened and asked me for some verification. I gave him my only copy of the 'Group Picture' of the NCO candidates that had faces of all the students. He asked me point out the South East Asian looking guy with gangster-like behavior, and I pointed the Asian dude. He also asked me to point out the other blacks and I was able to point one or two, but was difficult with the picture containing about 150 soldiers’' small faces. He borrowed the picture from me but never gave me back the picture as he promised however. There were one or two other soldiers who got called in for verification regarding the incident from my unit of soldiers who attended the school.

Gosh… after all these years, I guess that man got 30 years huh… I did see some news about the incident right after, but did not know the final result.

I'm such poet.

used to play Airsoft but i stopped after some guy accidentally shot my eye `