Bush and Roh Argue over North Korea at APEC Summit
UPDATE #4: Thanks to commenter extraordinaire Sonagi, what Roh actually said is a whole lot "clearer" to me now and DPRK Studies has an updated posting on Roh’s actual comments that sums things up very well.
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UPDATE #3: DPRK Studies believes Roh is just stupid while OFK believes this was planned attack on Bush before the Korean presidential election to show how Roh will stand up to the hated Yankees. I don’t think Roh is stupid, he is just incompetent.
Also everyone seems to be picking up on the Korean media cover up of this exchange as well. The only Korean media source I have seen bring up the exchange was the Joong Ang Ilbo which briefly mentioned a "testy exchange" between the two leaders.
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UPDATE #2: This story is definitely getting around. It is currently on the front page of the Drudge Report now. The Marmot and Nomad have a postings up on this as well. KU Studies looks at the current US-ROK relationship as defined by this exchange in the context of what it means towards the possible unification of the two Koreas. More over at DPRK Forum.
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UPDATE #1: Video of the exchange is now available on CNN (HT: Jack). Unfortunately you cannot hear what President Roh says in Korean or more importantly what the interpreter says in Korean.
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In what is probably the last meeting between President Bush and South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun it ended in what is the perfect analogy of the current relationship between the US and Korea, an incoherent argument over North Korea:
In a testy public exchange Friday with South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun, President Bush said the United States would formally end the Korean War only when North Korea halts its nuclear weapons program.
The two leaders met on the sidelines of a 21-nation Pacific Rim summit here, spending much of their roughly one-hour session discussing the international standoff over the communist North’s pursuit of atomic arms.
They agreed there had been progress. But then they had a before-the-cameras back-and-forth that was remarkable in the diplomatic world of understatement and subtlety.
Roh pushed Bush to be "clearer" about his position on an official end to the 1950-53 Korean War. The two Koreas were divided by the conflict, which ended in a truce, not a peace treaty, meaning they still remain technically at war.
The leaders’ tone remained light, but Bush responded firmly: "I can’t make it any more clear, Mr. President. We look forward to the day when we can end the Korean War. That will happen when Kim Jong Il verifiably gets rid of his weapons programs and his weapons." […]
The tense moments with Roh came as the leaders each made statements to reporters after their meeting. Roh concluded his by questioning why Bush hadn’t mention the issue of the war’s end.
"I might be wrong. I think I did not hear President Bush mention a declaration to end the Korean War just now," Roh said through an interpreter. "Did you say so, President Bush?"
"It’s up to Kim Jong Il," Bush said.
Roh pressed on. "If you could be a little bit clearer," he said, prompting nervous laughter from the U.S. delegation and a look of annoyance from Bush. [Tom Raum, AP]
I have to wonder if the delegation was laughing at the situation or laughing at Roh. I have been looking for video of this exchange, but could not find any yet. Interestingly enough Yonhap mentioned nothing about the exchange between Roh and Bush and actually put a positive spin on the meeting.
Friday’s Roh-Bush meeting, the eighth South Korea-U.S. summit during Roh’s term, lasted over 70 minutes in a "very friendly and warm atmosphere," presidential spokesman Cheon Ho-seon said, noting Bush called Roh his friend during the talks.
Roh and Bush have said that the settlement of the North Korean nuclear issue would lead to multilateral negotiations on the establishment of a permanent peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. [Yonhap]
"Very friendly and warm atmosphere"? If you say so Yonhap.
Over at KBS there wasn’t much said about the exchange either:
U.S. President George W. Bush says that if North Korea abandons its nuclear ambitions, Washington is willing to sign a formal peace treaty with the communist state.
He made the remarks during talks with President Roh Moo-hyun Friday in Sydney, where the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit is under way.
When Mr. Roh asked Bush to elaborate, the U.S. leader said the treaty will replace the inter-Korean armistice that ended the Korean War in 1953.
Bush said that whether the U.S. makes the peace offer is not important but that all depends on North Korean leader Kim Jong-il, urging him to get rid of his nukes and complete verification procedures. He added that progress is being made but that the ultimate decision lies with Pyongyang. [KBS]
I have to wonder if Roh had a poor interpreter or is he really that incompetent? What does he not understand about the Korean War officially ending once Kim Jong-il ends all of his illicit weapons programs?
This argument with Roh has made international headlines and is currently on the front page of Yahoo, CNN, and Fox News. I have to think that Roh has high hopes of having the US and North Korea end the Korean War during his term and wants to use the upcoming inter-Korean summit to announce it. He is desperation mode for some kind of legacy, but Bush isn’t going to give him any kind of legacy unless Kim Jong-il verifiably disarms his nuclear weapons programs which he has no intent to do for reasons I have listed before.
First the ransom payment to the Taliban and now this. It hasn’t been a good week for US-Korea relations. Bush’s expression in the above photograph says it all about the current state of the US-Korea relationship.
I would also be very interested in seeing a video of this meeting as well. I wish Bush could have been a little more aggressive toward Roh, though. Roh deserves to go down in history as the worst President in Korea to date. Everything he touched turned into shit.
Just more evidence that the Coreans play both sides. May as well have been Kim Jong-Il at the summit; the conversation would have been the same.
Bush and Roh “Spar” about Korean War Peace Treaty…
CVID isn’t dead – and both nuclear “programs” and “weapons” are named (I hope someone tells Chris Hill):
In a testy public exchange Friday with South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun, U.S. President George W. Bush said the United States would f…
[…] at ROKDrop and DPRKStudies… Share This Sphere: Related […]
I was there and saw the faces of several diplomats and advisors… very shocked!!!
[…] and it seems more of the meeting was a tad more unfiltered in others. Thanks to DPRK Studies, ROK Drop, and One Free Korea for clearing that mystery for […]
CNN has a video: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/07/bush/#…
I did not see the exchange until now, but yes, this was a very testy exchange.
I checked out news video over at Naver, and it seems the Korean media has carefully edited the exchange. None of the video clips I saw included Roh's "I think I might be wrong…" or "If you could be a bit clearer…" statements.
This reminds me of the time when I told the Korean masseuse that I didn't want a happy ending, but she thought that I said…..
I guess I should clarify; stupid for trying to pressure Bush like that. Kim Dae-jung found out what happened when he tried to speak on behalf of the U.S. at the first North-South summit – he was essentially put in his place. Roh should have know better, no did know better, but tried anyway; stupid.
I do not think Roh was being stupid or standing up to the "hated Yankees." I think he was clarifying official language. Bush's first statement used the term "security regime" not "peace treaty" in the context of a long utterance. That is why Roh initially sought clarification by saying, "I think I might be wrong — I think I did not hear President Bush mention the — a declaration to end the Korean War just now. Did you say so, President Bush?"
Bush then responded, "I said it's up to Kim Jong-il as to whether or not we're able to sign a peace treaty to end the Korean War. He's got to get rid of his weapons in a verifiable fashion. And we're making progress toward that goal. It's up to him." Bush used the term "peace treaty" but I can see how the conditional or chronological relationship between the two conditions, verification and a peace agreement, might not have been translated clearly.
First Bush said:
When Roh asked for clarification the first time – "I think I did not hear President Bush mention the — a declaration to end the Korean War just now. Did you say so, President Bush?" – Bush said:
And that answered the question. Taken together seems very clear. But Roh asked again. Roh was being… Roh.
I read your blog entry, Richardson. Diplomatic language ought to be precise. Calling for a "new security arrangement" to bring "peace" can be interpreted as referring to a peace treaty, but it is not an explicit statement.
The first clarification by Roh was reasonable. The second is questionable as to whether he was pushing or confused by a bad translation.
I'll stick with my Roh-is-a-fool theory.
There is a time and a place; that was not it.
After reading the Korean version of the conversation transcript at Chunghwadae's official website, I must conclude that Roh is not a fool but a smart-aleck. I think the K-E interpreter did a nice job editing out the snarkiness in Roh's final comment, but Bush seemed to sense Roh's intent anyway.
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2005? 9?19? 9.19???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??. 2006? 11? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ? ? ????. ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???, ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????.
6???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??. ??? ??????? ?? ????? 6???? ????? ????? 6???? ?? ????? 6???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?????.
???? ?? ? ???? ? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ? ???, ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??.
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? ? ??? = ??? ?????. ??? ????, ??? ????? ?? ???? ? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??. (??)
? ?? ??? = ? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????. ???? ??? ??? ?? ? ??. ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ? ? ??.
http://www.president.go.kr/cwd/kr/archive/archive…
Uh, wouldn't you say Roh being a smartass with Bush on TV with such issues is even worse? Not foolish, very foolish.
pretty much sums up how dumb roh is by thinking george bush can just say end the war and it will happen
oh well wont harp on this fact because everyone already knows it
I'm still sticking with incompetent. Even if there was a translation issue you still don't act the way Roh did in front of a global audience especially when Bush just concluded a meeting with Roh before the photo op that clearly showed what the US position on NK is.
The interpreter was basically covering Roh's rude bum by not translating his words and saying something different. The interpreter conveyed Roh's last remark as "If you could be a little clearer…" when according to the Blue House website, Roh actually said, "Same story (or talk). Same story, Chairman Kim Jong-il and the South Korean people want to heara different story."
A "smart aleck" means a fool.
I agree with Richardson.
Roh is so foolish.
All of us would miss his foolish act after his retirement.
He is a natural-born entertainer.
Thanks Sonagi, this whole thing is a bit more "clearer" for me now. The interpreter really did save Roh's rear end. I can only imagine what Bush's reaction would have been if the interpreter said what Roh actually said. It seems as if Roh was deliberately trying to start an international incident between the US and Korea before the inter-Korean summit.
It seems like Roh actually thinks the US should sign a peace treaty with Kim Jong-il before he does anything to end his weapons programs. The US will never reward Kim Jong-il in such a way unless he ends his nuclear program and it would be political suicide for any president to take such a measure.
Roh is not only incompetent but an a**hole as well.
What Roh Actually Said to Bush in Sydney…
As it turns out, jokes about Roh Moo-hyun being North Korean leader Kim Jong-il’s spokesman aren’t that far off the mark.
Commenter Sonagi has provided a link to the official South Korean version of the Bush-Roh exchange in Sydney, Australia …
A video clip of the exchange can be found at Roh's Blue House blog. Interestingly, the clip cuts off just as Roh is uttering his infamous "same story" line.
http://blog.naver.com/cwdblog?Redirect=Log&lo…
Also, I've put up a post on the translation issue, and saved the Blue House Korean text as a PDF there, in case it disappears later.
All of this controversy could have been avoided had the State Department spent the money and hired interpreters who are competent–i.e., who (a) knows what the sensitive terminologies are, and (b) does not get sloppy especially in front of the press and leave out vital phrases.
As some of you noted, President Bush did say “peace treaty” and “end to Korean War” in his opening remarks, but was not properly translated into Korean by the State Department translator. This is what provoked the entire exhcange. But at least the Korean side had a diplomat interpreting for President Roh who was competent enough to edit out potentially “undiplomatic” comments on the fly.
It should be noted that this is NOT the first time that photo ops and other press availabilities with the Korean side unnecessarily became a tense affair due to the interpreter on the US side.
Word of advice to anyone at the State Dept: there is a huge pool of competent Korean Americans you can dip into; just go out there and find someone who is even half competent.
Actually, I believe it was a ROK government translator (i.e., Roh’s translator), not a U.S. DoS one.
Sorry Richardson, but you are wrong on this one. Each side provides its own interpreter: US side brings its own interpreter who translates from English to Korean, and the Korean side provides the interpreter to translate the Korean President's words into English. You can think of the interpreters as being partisan mouthpieces of each side–thus, you wouldn't want the other side to misinterpret what your side is saying.
Again, if you compare the Korean version of President Bush's remarks, as translated by the US side's interpreter, you will notice that he fudged the part where President Bush specifically mentioned "Peace Treaty," "end to the Korean War," and "we fully support …". And that is what sparked the controversy. So, White House isn't completely putting a spin on things by sayng something got "lost in translation."
My advice to the State Dept stands.
This goes back to my Roh is incompetent comment because Roh clearly knew what the US position was because they just had a meeting prior to the press conference that clearly layed out the US position on North Korea.
Even if the US interpreter messed up the "peace treaty" portion of the translation Roh already knew what the US position was and created a minor diplomatic incident that the Korean interpreter prevented from becoming a major diplomatic incident by not accurately translating the smart ass remark from Roh.
If anyone has told Bush yet what Roh actually said do you think he is going to be to eager to help Roh with the visa waiver issue? Roh's incompetence is directly effecting the Korean people.
The translator was a female, not male, and Roh’s translator was the one speaking for him during the televised meeting.
That exact translation was also used in the White House transcript.
Thus I’m fairly certain it was Roh’s translator.
Unless you have any proof besides how you assume things work.
I believe Richardson is referring to the part where Roh asked for a second clarification. There, the Korean interpreted what Roh had said into English–in fact, she did a good job of not translating word-for-word as it would have wreaked a diplomatic havoc.
What I'm referring to the US translator's fudging of President Bush's opening remarks. Here's the proof:
Opening Remarks:
[Bush] “And in our discussions I reaffirmed our government's position that when the North Korean leader fully discloses and gets rid of his nuclear weapons programs, that we can achieve a new security arrangement in the Korean Peninsula, that we can have the peace that we all long for. You and I discussed the Northeast Peace and Security agreement — arrangement, which we support. And so I'm optimistic. There's still more work to be done. But nevertheless, Mr. President, when we have worked together we have shown that it's possible to achieve the peace on the Korean Peninsula that the people long for.”
According to Yonhapnews, this is what the US side’s translator said: “??? ??? ?? ??? ??, ??? ??? ???? ???. ?? ???? ??? ? ????? ?? ???? ? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???. ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ? ???? ????. ??? ?? ???(Optimistic)?? ????…??? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ?? ????.”
But more importantly, the US translator fudged what President Bush had said in response to Pres Roh's first request for clarification:
[Bush] "I said it's up to Kim Jong-il as to whether or not we're able to sign a peace treaty to end the Korean War." (Note: he actually used the phrase "… peace treaty to end the Korean War.")
Again, according to Yonhap, this is how the US interpreter translated this comment: "??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ????."
This is what provoked the request for second clarification. And, I'm not sure what Richardson's experience is with the conduct of diplomacy, but each side provides its own interpreter to translate into the language of the other side–especially for meetings as important as summits. You can double-check whether I'm correct on this one.
Ok, the website doesn't accept Korean fonts. Richardson, if you read Korean, check against the Yonhapnews' transcript of the exchange–here, the Korean version of President Bush's comments were as interpreted by the US interpreter.
Here's the link: http://www.yonhapnews.co.kr/politics/2007/09/07/0…
Also, check out this article on Yonhapnews which pretty much makes clear that it was the US interpreter who screwed up and started this:
http://www.yonhapnews.co.kr/politics/2007/09/09/0…
Jae,
Most of this thread focuses on the the mis-translation of the second "clarification," not what you are referring to.
I don't know about what Yonhap said, I went to the Blue House page.
Context is everything.
Well, for someone who values "context" it's interesting how you don't want to confront the original translation problem that sparked this controversy.
Yonhapnews is like the AP of Korea–thus their factual reporting sticks to the facts. You should ask someone who knows Korean to interpret what the transcript on the Yonhapnews link says. And it will become clear where the origina fault lies.
Now, as for the President's second request for clarification, it would have been a major gaffe had the Korean translator translated it word-for-word there.
Well, I guess I'll leave off my own little exchange with Richardson on this note. Any third party comments?
Richardson, you seem to be confused –
Roh had a K-E female interpreter speaking for him, from the Korean government's side.
Bush had a E-K male interpreter speaking for him, from the state Department. I work in foreign policy and I know this for a fact. So Bush's interpreter started the whole mess by leaving out chunks of Bush's statements that Roh wanted to hear.
Now, even given that, Roh's behavior was a serious faux pas.
R2L, whoever,
I just said above the Roh had a female, not male translator. Go read it again.
Jae & R2L,
Bush and Roh met before the televised meeting, as GI Korea points out, and it is almost guaranteed that Roh understood exactly what Bush was talking about.
Roh’s actual (Korean) response bears this out – he said that’s the “same story” and KJI/ROK people want a “different story” or the “next step.”
'Clearly' – by his response in Korean – Roh understood exactly what Bush was saying, and Roh was pushing for a the U.S. to offer NK a peace treaty before denuclearization.
That, gents, is the real issue.
A translating error did not cause that; an error in thinking by Roh did.
Signing off for the night…
As evidenced by JaeNY's, second link, he has swallowed the Korean media spin that Bush's interpreter made a 'translation miss.'
"You should ask someone who knows Korean to interpret what the transcript on the Yonhapnews link says. And it will become clear where the origina fault lies.
"
I speak Korean, and I did read the transcript and listen to Bush's interpreter speak Korean in a video clip available at the White House website. After the first clarification, Bush did say, "a peace treaty to end the Korean War," and the interpreter used the official term "peace treaty" but did not add the phrase "to end the Korean War." That is hardly "whole chunks of speech," and as Richardson pointed out, the two had met for an hour previously. What upset Roh wasn't the fact that the interpreter said "peace treaty" instead of "peace treaty to end the Korean War," (well, duh, that's what peace treaties do – end wars!!!); it was Bush's repeated references to ending KJI's nuclear program as non-negotiable pre-condition. Roh himself acknowledged in the press yesterday that he will not be discussing denuclearization at the summit.
Let's summarize the key points:
1. Bush makes repeated references to KJI giving up his nuclear weapons before any peace treaty is signed.
2. Roh doesn't want to talk about denuclearization because it might spoil KJI's kibun.
Conclusion: Roh threw his head back, laughed, and muttered about KJI and the South Korean people wanting to hear a different answer because he was upset that he wouldn't be bringing a peace treaty on a silver platter as a summit gift.
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