Korean-American Businesses Looted and Destroyed During Ferguson Riots
I am not at all familiar with St. Louis so I was wondering if Korean-Americans had opened businesses in the black neighborhoods there like they have in other major cities. It appears they have which of course has made them targets of the rioters:
The violent protests in Ferguson, Missouri, over a grand jury decision not to indict a white police officer who fatally shot a black teen destroyed two Korean stores.
Among the roughly 20 stores that are run by Korean nationals in Ferguson, two were burned down and another five or six were looted or had their windows broken as of Wednesday, according to the Korean American Association of St. Louis.
The cost of damages has exceeded $2 million.
The stores, most of which sell cell phones and beauty products, were attacked because they are on a road leading to the Ferguson Police Department.
Local police are reportedly blocking that road now, although business owners were recommended to suspend their businesses as people continue to protest the decision over Officer Darren Wilson, who fatally shot 18-year-old Michael Brown in August. [Joong Ang Ilbo]
You can read more at the link.
They must have missed the memo from the Korean store owners in L.A. on how to properly defend your property.
I can’t imagine letting someone destroy something that I have put a good portion of my time and energy into without putting up a fight.
Maybe it’s like someone said recently on here:(Can’t recall who now) Let them burn it down, take the insurance money and start over in an area where it’s less likely to happen again. Might not be worth risking your life to keep a store in that area, when you could just take the money and start over in a safer place.
Blame the governor and the criminals.
“Let them burn it down, take the insurance money and start over in an area where it’s less likely to happen again.” Would work for me…
It has been a long time since the LA riots, but Koreans over 40 in Korea still remember the damage done to the Korean community by the black community angry at the white community.
As it is not a Koreatown, this incident does not seem like this is making the Korean news with the same intensity. But this adds to the bad stereotypes and negative feelings many Koreans have about blacks, as they frequently suffer in the black and white battle not seen as their issue.
During the LA Riots, I remember CNN saying something like “the black community is blowing off steam” as they smashed windows and looted shops followed by a very negative report showing armed Koreans on rooftops “unnecessarily escalating an already tense situation”.
In Ferguson, it is almost assured that if you remained in your business and defended it with deadly force, even if threatened with deadly force such as arson, the media and federal government would side with the violent mob of public dependents over a lone self-sufficient small business owner or employee defending their only livelihood.
There would be endless commentary about how it would have deescalated the situation for the business owner to have stayed home so the fault is ultimately his. There would be no mention of how an Asian immigrant arrived with nothing in his pockets and built a business alone through sacrifice and hard work but there would be a lot of information about the dead looters and arsonists who were always quick to help anyone and always made everybody laugh; and now that they had finally turned their lives around, their dreams of college to be a social worker for handicapped orphans had been shattered by the needless and avoidable violence of a racist shop owner.
And even if the shop owner saved his shop and reopened, any blacks who shopped there would be labeled traitors in the black community based on racist solidarity rather than any sense of right or wrong.
And the media would ignore that.
America is losing its way in so many areas.
P.S. Johnnyboy, your two winning comments of moderate sensibility in one night has inspired me. Perhaps others will join us.
But meegook always say Korea is racist and Korea must learn from superior America. How can this happen in the perfect multicultural USA? Yes that must be it. Look at racist Korea with all the race riots. That would never happen in the non racist USA. Never.
Huh, S. Koreans working and living with “wild animals” in a “ghetto” profiting from those living in that “ghetto culture?”
The “mob” didn’t burn down the S. Korean businesses because they were Korean.
“Blame the governor”
Yeah, he called for a national emergency use of the national guard about 2 weeks before the decision but then did not deploy them prior to the evening report of decision on Nov. 24th
Robert McCulloch’s(Ferguon County Prosecuting Attorney) own personal 20 minute defense speech of the accused defendant. What led to all this is his regular leaks of information/goings on inside the 23 day grand jury room and of course his own personal defense speech had to be at 8:00pm rather than lets say…8:00 A.M. He wanted/needed prime time fame and he got it.
If the prosecuting attorney(Robert McCulloch) wanted an indictment he could’ve gotten one, all other prosecuting attorneys do. Isn’t there any probable cause as to whether Darren Wilson broke the law/used excessive force to kill an unarmed man, if so then there should’ve been a normal trial.
Darren Wilson shot 12+ bullets, 6 or 7 entry wounds into the body of Michael Brown including 2 in the head.
Darren Wilson got a private trial run by friendly prosecutors
http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/26/darren-wilson-got-a-private-trial
“St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch managed to obscure the latter point by staging what amounted to a trial behind closed doors—a trial without a judge or an adversarial process. Assuming the jurors were acting in good faith (and there is no reason to think they weren’t), the only explanation for their decision is that they lost sight of the task at hand and considered the evidence as if they were being asked to convict Wilson rather than approve charges that would have led to a real trial.
It is not hard to see how the grand jurors could have made that mistake. McCulloch said he would present all of the evidence collected so far—everything a trial jury would see and hear. The jurors convened on 23 days, hearing testimony that takes up nearly 5,000 pages of transcript, not including the various recorded interviews played for them. Instead of making the case for an indictment, as they ordinarily would do, the prosecutors running the show often seemed to be reinforcing Wilson’s defense, as when they suggested that marijuana-induced psychosis might account for the ferocious attack that Wilson says he suffered at Brown’s hands and for the heedless charge that Wilson says forced him to shoot Brown over and over again…
…But a real trial, even one ending in acquittal, would have been much more effective at achieving those goals. A public airing of the evidence, with ample opportunity for advocates on both sides to present and probe it, is what Brown’s family has been demanding all along. McCulloch took extraordinary steps to deny them that trial, thereby reinforcing the impression that the legal system is rigged against young black men and in favor of the white cops who shoot them.”
“There would be no mention of how an Asian immigrant arrived with…”
YOU didn’t mention the Koreans who participated in the LA Riots, you just pretend it’s only a big bad black man problem ¯\_(ツ)_/¯(Whatever).
Why are Americans attacking Koreans, Tbone?
At least the French don’t seem to be weighing in this time.
I do remember Mitterrand’s prophetic (dramatic pause for darkly humorous irony) words, “Dees tings would never happen in France!” during the LA riots.
Wonder how many work boots were looted?
“Why are Americans attacking Koreans, Tbone?”
You didn’t read the full Joong Ang article did you? Anyway, the Koreans said it wasn’t racist numbnuts…
So what could be the reason? Because they face a hopeless situation(usually due to discrimination/racism) especially in schools(a white boy gets detention, a black boy gets suspended or expelled), with law enforcement in Ferguson and other counties in USA. Of course discrimination/racism isn’t everywhere in Amereica but can be found anywhere and a common place to find is in law enforcement, private prisons, cop shops, prosecution offices, and court rooms.
Liz, that’s a really stupid question.
They don’t sell work boots in Ferguson.
It would be like asking how many chess pieces, calculus textbooks, or truffles were stolen.
The question you should be asking is how this is going to affect the national supply of grape soda and do-rags.
Bah-dum-bump
Tom, (black) Americans attack Korean businesses because Koreans make them in black neighborhoods where they become targets of racism and/or opportunity.
For a number of reasons, necessary businesses in black neighborhoods are not being started by black businessmen. Koreans fill that need and profit from it. This causes resentment based on racism in the black community.
The black community asks “Why do Koreans take advantage of us?” instead of “How can the black community work together to become self sufficient communities not reliant on the generosity or services provided by other races?”
The idea of “How can the black community work in harmony with other races to achieve mutual success?” is an incomprehensible concept. Those who work in harmony with other races, especially if they become successful, are labeled Uncle Toms and Oreos.
So, with nothing but failure, resentment, envy, and a false sense of injustice, Korean businesses become targets.
And, of course, when the action starts, “It’s fo’ free”.
“The black community asks “Why do Koreans take advantage of us?”
What a crock of crap!
Chickenhead hates blacks, it’s obvious he despises them and should really seek professional help. I just wonder how he keeps his USA “contractor” job when so many people have seen his picture and know who he is? Do most U.S. servicemembers/contractors hate black people? Is that how he keeps his job?
Tbone, you should see it. We sit around the break room in the tank tread rebuilding depot with the window open and yell shyt out at the black soldiers like, “Hey boy, get my sprocket wrench!”
While a couple of the guys are still active in the Klan, most of my government coworkers and fellow contractors don’t attend regular meeting except when there is a special event, well, except the guys in IT. Those boys are downright Nazis. It wasn’t my place to ask what was going on but I saw them loading a squirming black guy tied up with CAT5 cable into a humvee once.
They really aren’t bad guys, though. They are trying to be more open. We had a centerfold of a real black girl hanging on the wall last year until the general saw it and said she was too damn ugly to hang on HIS wall so we replaced her with a mulatto, though she might just be a quadroon.
I keep telling them it isn’t about race, it is about culture and that average people of all races are far more concerned about actions and attitude than eye, hair, or skin color when evaluating another person. I tried to explain that white people who dress, speak, and act poorly are also discriminated against in every facet of life, from employment to police interactions, even if they don’t have the excuse of racism to blame for their social and economic failures.
You can guess that line of reasoning wasn’t popular at the Yongsan Unified Aryian Power meeting. They threatened to suspend my Stormfront account and I had to beg a group of colonels to forgive me. In the end, they let me off the hook after I personally burned a cross in front of both the Yongsan post office and the suppy warehouse.
But don’t worry, racism against blacks is really going down these days among government workers and contractors as the new fad is putting on jackboots and cruising Itaewon looking for some Eskimo azz to kick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjMTeCeCZLE
Fast forward to 5 minutes. Farrakhan speaks on foreigners taking advantage of black communities. Standing ovation.
Farrakhan is a master of his craft… and a pleasure to watch.
He brilliantly makes the most distasteful concepts sound like the smoothest and most desirable of snake oils.
He can convert known falsehoods into convincing truths with that casual silky voice combined with controlled bursts of modulated outrage.
He seamlessly mixes perfect white enunciation and vocabulary with the comfortable rhythm of and accent of common black speaking.
Moving on…
This video speaks all many truths that are worth considering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpsQwl_19M4
Good video, CH.
“If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn’t sit for a month.”
– Theodore Roosevelt
Johnnyboy,
That was good, he sounds a bit like Chickenhead in how he exaggerates but otherwise much of what he said is true.
Liz,
“Good video, CH.”
You should line up behind Chickenhead in his human centipede. If I were a cop and I pulled over Chickenhead I’m sure I’d find something he did or was wrong with his vehicle and could therefore respond by saying get the f*** out of the car, spread your legs, put your hands over and around your head interlocking your fingers, then when he didn’t do it within the time I allotted(2 seconds) I would throw him down to the ground smashing his face into the pavement, then I could intentionally but not obviously let him loose allowing him to run in order to give chase eventually catching up with him with/without the help of my fellow black cops, throw some more f*** you etc…terms at him so he’d come at me allowing me to shoot him dead emptying my gun of bullets, the last two to the head.
Actually, this is why Michael Brown did it(according the the prosecution’s story to the grand jury in it’s defense of their friend and accused murdering/racist officer Darren Wilson…
The answer to the question in the headline below is…wait for it…YES!
And yes, the prosecution leaked this information/test results to the public too!
Ferguson: Did prosecutors focus unduly on marijuana?
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-30216293
“Sullum says that the prosecutors did everything they could to push a “pharmacological explanation” for the aggressive behaviour Wilson claims Brown exhibited in their confrontation.
While prosecutors in the case noted that 5 nanograms is the legal limit for operating motor vehicles in the two US states where pot is now legal, Sullum contends that other studies have shown that higher levels are required for impairment.
“The fact that Brown’s THC level was ‘over twice’ this arbitrary number, as Alizadeh emphasized, does not necessarily indicate he was too stoned to drive, let alone that he had consumed enough marijuana to precipitate a psychotic break.”
Vox’s German Lopez also questions whether marijuana could have played a role in the Ferguson incident. He points to later grand jury testimony by Michael A Baden, a forensic pathologist hired by the Brown family.
Could marijuana have affected Brown’s reactions and behaviour once he was shot, assistant prosecutor Sheila Whirley asked.
“The amount of marijuana he has could cause abnormal behaviour, but usually doesn’t,” Mr Baden replied.
“Ninety-nine out of 100 people taking marijuana aren’t going to get in a fight with a police officer,” he said.
Lopez notes that Ms Whirley then questioned Mr Baden’s credentials and one of the grand jurors expressed doubt that the expert could know that marijuana wasn’t the reason why Brown fought with Wilson.
“There’s actually no reason to believe, based on the available research and the scientific understanding of pot, that marijuana would actually make someone more violent,” Lopez writes.
“This makes sense to anyone with even a vague notion of marijuana’s effects. Pot is most popularly known as a sedative that relaxes users. One of the prominent arguments against its use, in fact, is that it makes users so sedated that they’re lazy and, as a result, unproductive.”
When word of the positive blood test first was leaked in October, however, some marijuana critics were quick to call attention to the drug.
“Brown’s death … should serve as a tragic reminder that marijuana is not harmless, that it is not just like alcohol,” Christian Thurstone, an addictions psychologist, wrote in his blog (in a post that has since been deleted), “that its consumption often leads to impairment that is very difficult for the public to measure – also making it tough for the public to hold users accountable for the harm they’ve caused others. Marijuana users also could be vulnerable to aggression and attacks while under the drug’s influence.”
Oh, and cop shops don’t report how many civilians they’ve shot or killed.
In New York cops used to shoot at cars with black drivers all the time,. Today in Ferguson county Missouri they can only shout out obscenities/orders to black J-walking etc…pedestrians. However, I’m sure Darren Wilson and his ilk have shot at/killed automobiles driven by black drivers and we’d never know it according to the books/stats.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/
“Other than basic statistical analysis, Wexler said, a comprehensive database of police shootings would allow departments to better analyze when officers are drawing and using their guns – potentially leading to policy changes that could save lives.
He noted a shift in policy by the New York Police Department in 1972, in which the department instructed its officers to no longer shoot at moving vehicles.
“When they made that change the number of NYPD shootings plummeted,” he said.”
So is it ridiculous to say that black communities feel like Koreans take advantage of them or was Farrakhan wrong?
“Why are Americans attacking Koreans, Tbone?”
Seems to me Americans are attacking Americans Tom, but as usual the Korean media and Koreans like you call Korean-Americans Korean when it suits them and American when it doesn’t, like when they do something bad.
Hines Ward was a Korean when his Koreaness won the SB, not before though. What’s your take on that Tom?
Why haven’t there been race riots in Korea Tom?
Why were blacks angry with Koreans before, during and after the LA riots Tom? Take a shot in the back… I mean dark with that one Tom.
Why did black rappers write angry songs about Koreans before the LA riots Tom? Why were Koreans targeted Tom?
As usual you prove you know nothing about the US, or your home country Korea Tom.
Maybe expats of all colors comment about Korean racism because they are sick and tired of hearing a good lot KOREANS talk about how everyone else in the world is racist except for Koreans.
No gays in Korea and there is no racism in Korea either and Korean blood is pure! Anyone ever here a Korean say that? What does that remind you of Tom?
There doesn’t need to be a Pearl S Buck Foundation in Korea.
Koreans are kind to foreigners and “foreigners with Korean citizenship!”
I don’t know but I don’t live in a black community or more to the point in Ferguson county Missouri, you’d have to ask them. All I can say is the Korean business owners in this post didn’t feel the burn down was racist. However white people might think so in California(1993 Falling Down-Korean Convenience Store), and I’m sure prices have gone up since 1993…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2YRMixW9u8
I would say that if I were a convenience store patron like in that Falling Down movie I’d be pissed too since they got a phone on property but won’t give you change to use it unless you buy something and then suggest “You cause trouble” when nothing had been done at that point other than possibly a little negotiating. Koreans negotiate all the time and Korean business owners take advantage of each other(AND “foreigners” in Korea all the time I just haven’t heard it said about Ferguson, MOtown.
Obviously there is a portion of the black community that feels that Koreans and other foreigners are taking advantage of them if Mr. Farrakhan can successfully use it to misdirect and casually brush aside Mike Brown’s violent robbery that was caught on tape.
Do you still stand by your statement that it was a crock of crap?
Agreed that it is somewhat petty to charge people to use the phone. I would guess that it would be less about making money off the purchase of a soda and more about not having people come in endlessly to use the phone when you are trying to conduct business.
I feel a bit silly hypothesizing about a fictional character’s thought process since it was a movie.
I don’t think “Falling Down” justifies what Mike Brown did to that clerk, or what happened to that store after charges weren’t brought against Wilson.
I don’t understand how someone operating a private business in a community is taking advantage of residents, except maybe if their pricing is high. In that case, that doesn’t mean residents have carte blanche to rob the store and assault the clerk. They are free to shop wherever they like.
Tbone brought up a good point about what would happen if I encountered a police officer. I thought about that for a while… about what made my situation so much different than Michael Brown.
First, I don’t engage in public azzhole behavior. Walking in the middle of the street like they own it is something low income/low education people of many races do… but it is foolish. This and many other behaviors invite cop attention. That attention can be blamed on racism… and generally IS blamed on racism… but it really just has to do with being an azzhole. (BTW: Blacks blame racism and whites blame azzhole cops for the same interactions).
Michael Brown was not targeted because he was black. He was targeted because he was walking in the street… dangerously… disruptively… illegally. That fact seems to have been forgotten.
Which brings us to ChickenHead’s Cop Rule #1: Don’t draw attention of cops. That means appearance and/or actions should not be inviting scrutiny for criminal behavior… especially if you ARE engaged in criminal behavior. Most white people have this figured out. Many blacks and Hispanics do not. Race is not nearly as big of factor in attracting cops as non-cops would have the world believe. Cops are drawn to questionable appearance and actions far over race… because it shows a lack of personal discipline and judgement that frequently extends to other areas… primarily carrying drugs or weapons and admitting to other criminal actions after demonstrating suspicious behavior under scrutiny.
Second, if told to stop being an azzhole by a cop who wants to keep order by doing as little work as possible, such as yelling out his window while driving by, I would see that as a gift. It is certainly not the time to mouth off and encourage him to take a larger interest in the situation… especially if you ARE engaged in other criminal activity. Most white people have this figured out, too… many Hispanics, as well. Blacks don’t seem to get this.
Michael Brown was not given further attention by Officer Wilson because he was black. He was given further attention because he unnecessarily mouthed off to a cop. This has not been seen as important, even though politicians, reporters, and black leaders scream bloody murder when they are disrespected.
Which brings us to ChickenHead’s Cop Rule #2:
Treat cops with respect at all times. Don’t be a bootlicker, as that is frowned upon, but speak to them as you would like to be spoken to… slightly better. Never use profanity, never raise your voice, be friendly, sprinkle your speaking with “officer” or “sir”, and be generally cooperative (unless it is a serious situation that requires a lawyer, in which case be physically cooperative and shut the hell up).
In a face-to-face situation, a lot of people of all races have not got this down and want to argue with the cop… sometimes over the most petty of issues. The cop will seldom back down… and no matter how miserable the situation, the cop will make it MORE miserable based on your response. Your race does not matter.
If you feel you are being treated unjustly by the police officer, don’t argue with him. Take advantage of America’s amazing court system… where applying cop-friendly lessons to the judge will result in little-to-no punishment even if you are completely guilty of some stupid stuff. Low level court is an amazing place with many lessons to learn… and the most amazing lesson is just how amazingly disrespectful many (most) people are to the judge… even when the judge is trying to give them a break.
Third, don’t attack cops verbally or physically. Even if, by chance, you should win round one, they just send more cops.
Michael Brown was not shot because he was black. He was shot because he approached a police car, entered the police car, and started some kind of physical altercation with the cop seated inside. No matter how the media wants to spin it, society is not yet broken down to the point where attacks on cops engaged in lawful behavior are acceptable.
Which brings us to ChickenHead’s Cop Rule #3: Make cops feel comfortable. This is a really, really important rule… as it sets the tone for the entire encounter. I have been stopped an uncountable number of times… generally late at night… and frequently in a vehicle that screams of criminality (see Rule #1)… and sometimes dressed in a way that fits a perfect profile for further scrutiny… and sometimes with other people that might actually be a bit shady.
While the cop is sitting in his car doing all the things cops do before approaching my vehicle, I place my license, insurance, and registration on the dash in front of the steering wheel. I place whatever firearm I am carrying under the seat. I shut off my engine, turn on the interior light, and roll the window down fully. Then I place my hands at the 10-2 position and wait for the officer to step up to the window.
Then I own him.
Regardless of Rule #1 violations and low-level Rule #2 violations, the officer instantly recognizes he is not dealing with the normal people who violate #1 and #2. When he asks for my paperwork, I hand him each one he requests and replace my hands on the wheel.
When he makes small-talk (to determine if there is alcohol, drugs, or criminally-inspired nervousness involved), I casually explain the situation about whatever I suspect the real reason is why he stopped me… as “illegal lane change” is not really possible since I had been watching him following me for a mile… and was changing lanes perfectly… and the real reason is because I am driving a shiny black car with tinted black windows at 2am… or dressed as a punk rocker with a guitar neck sticking out the window… or hauling a motorcycle lashed to the trunk of a rusty beater… at which point I casually satisfy his curiosity on all the questions he has not yet asked with reasonable answers.
…at which point the cop loses interest, tells me to drive carefully and have a good night (after a “warning” to be more careful changing lanes)… and then he goes off to catch somebody else who might be worth catching… such as a black guy who says something like, “M’fukker I didn’t make no kind of damn illegal lane change or nuthin’. You just fukkin’ wit me ’cause I be black.”
“Sir, please step out of the vehicle.”
Ahhhh… there are pages of rules that many people just don’t get when dealing with cops… and when I rode with cops, I found that black people (in poor neighborhoods) get them the least… and bring a lot of trouble upon themselves that better behavior, polite speaking, and a better attitude would have solved… and, surprisingly, many of the worst offenders have LOTS of experience with cops yet they have never refined their manners.
It really has little to do with racism and lots to do with culture… and the people pushing the racism narrative will never be in a situation to understand this… or choose not to.
“Agreed that it is somewhat petty to charge people to use the phone.”
Boy, you have a difficulty with listening don’t you? In 1993 and perhaps still today there are pay phones OUTSIDE/CONNECTED to/ON SIDEWALK stores like one in Falling Down, he asked for change so he could PAY to use the phone that was on store property but of course S. Korean customer service couldn’t see it in them to provide change for THEIR customers. The only way to get change is to buy something. If they don’t want people asking for change to PAY to use the phone then they should take the phone off property or disconnect it. Now, if you pay attention you’d have seen that just before Michael Douglas enters the store the Korean cracked open a roll of quarters but said…”No chain, ha buy shumding.” Korea customer service at its best!
“I don’t think “Falling Down” justifies what Mike Brown did to that clerk, or what happened to that store after charges weren’t brought against Wilson.”
That’s not why I provided the link, it was to show that not only blacks feel like Koreans rip them off.
“Do you still stand by your statement that it was a crock of crap?”
Yes!
The CH statement was…”The black community asks “Why do Koreans take advantage of us?”
It’s still a crock of crap because I don’t hear black people saying that and neither did your man Farrakhan but you probably didn’t listen well enough to hear what he said. He said they don’t “respect” nor “give back” to the community. Plus, I haven’t heard anyone say such a thing from or about Ferguson county Missouri and like Farrakhan. Chickenhead exaggerates as though every black community says that which just isn’t true. Chickenhead and Farrakhan ~ two peas in a pod.
Koreans can blame the prosecutor for their businesses being burnt down to the ground. Prosecutor Robert McCulloch has a history of bias in favor of police involved in altercations with black men.
But why didn’t the prosecutor ask Darren Wilson(during the grand jury process) why he didn’t drive off/away when Michael Brown was supposedly trying to grab his gun and Wilson thought…“At this point I’m like, this guy is going to kill me if he gets a hold of this gun.”
Again, why didn’t officer Darren Wilson just stick it in drive or reverse?
The prosecutor didn’t ask Wilson how the right side of Dareen Wilson’s face was red when common sense says it should’ve been his left side if Michael Brown really did hit him in the face?
Prosecutor Manipulates Grand Jury Process to Shield Officer
http://truth-out.org/news/item/27699-prosecutor-manipulates-grand-jury-process-to-shield-officer
“You know the fix is in when a suspect who shot an unarmed man voluntarily provides four hours of un-cross examined testimony to a grand jury without taking the Fifth.
The nail in the coffin of “equal justice under law” came on November 24, when the St. Louis County grand jury refused to indict Wilson for any criminal charges in the shooting death of Brown. In a virtually unprecedented move, St. Louis Prosecutor Robert McCulloch in effect deputized the grand jurors to sit as triers of fact as in a jury trial.
In a normal grand jury proceeding, the prosecutor presents evidence for a few days and then asks the grand jurors to return an indictment, which they nearly always do. Of 162,000 federal cases in 2010, grand juries failed to indict in only 11 of them, according the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
The standard of proof for a grand jury to indict is only probable cause to believe the suspect committed a crime. It is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which is required for conviction at trial. Yet McCulloch’s team presented testimony and documents to the panel for three months, evidence not subjected to adversarial testing by cross-examination.
Justice Antonin Scalia explained the function of the grand jury in United States v. Williams as follows:
[I]t is the grand jury’s function not “to enquire . . . upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied,” or otherwise to try the suspect’s defenses, but only to examine “upon what foundation [the charge] is made” by the prosecutor. [citations omitted] As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented.
Every principle Scalia cited was violated in this case. The grand jury was asked to determine whether Wilson acted in self-defense. Wilson was allowed to give four hours of self-serving testimony to the grand jury. And for three months, prosecutors presented both incriminating and exculpatory evidence.
The prosecutor did not ask these grand jurors for an indictment. They were left to sift through the evidence on their own, with no prosecutorial guidance about what to charge. Indeed, the transcripts indicated that prosecutors asked Wilson gentle, leading questions designed to bolster his self-defense claim. For example, a prosecutor told Wilson, “You felt like your life was in jeopardy,” followed by, “And use of deadly force was justified at that point, in your opinion?” But prosecutors rigorously challenged witnesses who contradicted Wilson’s testimony.
These grand jurors, who were nearing the end of their term, which began in May, knew the drill, since they had sat on several other cases. They knew the prosecutor always asks for indictments. Thus, when the prosecutor handled the Wilson case in a radically different manner, this signaled to the grand jurors that they were not expected to indict. And they did not.
Another unorthodox aspect of this case was McCulloch’s announcement of the grand jury’s decision on national television. Sounding like a defense attorney delivering a closing argument in a jury trial, McCulloch characterized and analyzed the witness testimony in the light most favorable to the officer.
McCulloch has a history of bias in favor of police involved in altercations with black men. But, ignoring the pleas of 7,000 residents in and near Ferguson who signed a petition, McCulloch refused to recuse himself in the Wilson case.
McCulloch had mischaracterized testimony in a 2000 case in which two black men were killed after officers fired 21 shots at them. As in the Wilson case, the reasonableness of the officers’ use of deadly force was critical. In the 2000 case, the officers said the two victims were driving toward them, trying to run them down, and McCulloch claimed that all the witnesses corroborated the officers’ story. A later federal investigation, however, determined that the car was not moving forward, and that only three of the thirteen officers said the car was moving forward.
Likewise, Wilson’s claim that Brown was “charging” at him when the officer fired the fatal shots into the top of Brown’s bowed head was critical to the reasonableness of Wilson’s use of deadly force. When McCulloch announced the grand jury’s decision, he characterized the witnesses who testified that Brown was “charging” the officer as believable, but dismissed the testimony of witnesses who said Brown was surrendering. McCulloch sounded like a defense attorney, not a prosecutor charged with representing “the people,” including Brown.
Wilson fired 12 shots at Brown, six of which struck the teenager. There was a great deal of contradiction among the witnesses, including whether Brown’s hands were up or down when Wilson shot at him. That is precisely why there should have been an indictment and a jury trial. Jurors would hear all of the evidence, subjected to adversarial testing by cross-examination. They would assess the credibility of the witnesses, and determine whether Wilson had committed any crime(s) beyond a reasonable doubt.
After reviewing the transcripts and evidence in the Wilson case, San Francisco Public Defender Jeff Adachi noted:
Read the riveting rest…
I haven’t seen the movie in years so I didn’t quite remember all the details of the fictional events in the film. The good thing about people ripping you off, is you have the option of taking your business elsewhere and after a while, they will either have to lower their prices or go out of business.
No one has take a bat to the store or burn it down.
If you were looking for me to defend Michael Douglas’s character’s action in the film, I’m not going to. He’s wrong too, or he would be if he really existed and that had really happened. But again, it’s fiction.
I don’t know how prevalent the view is within the black community that foreigners are taking advantage of blacks. I’m not suggesting it’s a majority view, but it’s obviously what Farrakhan believes by his remarks. Since that store doesn’t give back to the community, then he refuses to acknowledge that Mike Brown assaulted the clerk and stole merchandise.
From the robbery video, it’s apparent that the store clerk was taking advantage of Mike Brown by not giving him the cigars he so desperately needed and deserved.
This bit from this article seems apt to the situation.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/
“There are at least three possible explanations as to why grand juries are so much less likely to indict police officers. The first is juror bias: Perhaps jurors tend to trust police officer and believe their decisions to use violence are justified, even when the evidence says otherwise. The second is prosecutorial bias: Perhaps prosecutors, who depend on police as they work on criminal cases, tend to present a less compelling case against officers, whether consciously or unconsciously.
The third possible explanation is more benign. Ordinarily, prosecutors only bring a case if they think they can get an indictment. But in high-profile cases such as police shootings, they may feel public pressure to bring charges even if they think they have a weak case.”
I’m leaning more towards the third possible explanation. Under normal circumstances, the average prosecutor probably wouldn’t have taken this to a grand jury, a preliminary trial, or a trial if the case hadn’t been so widely covered.
“From the robbery video, it’s apparent that the store clerk was taking advantage of Mike Brown by not giving him the cigars he so desperately needed and deserved.”
A misdemeanor is not cause to be shot dead which is covered in my most recent link…
“In Tennessee v. Garner, the Supreme Court held that an officer cannot arrest an unarmed felony suspect by shooting him dead. If the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon, or there is probable cause to believe he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape. Although there is a dispute about whether Wilson knew that Brown was suspected of stealing cigarillos before stopping him, Brown had likely committed petty theft – a non-violent misdemeanor, not a felony.”
“Under normal circumstances”
This case wasn’t normal as an unarmed man was shot dead and there is so much unknown and contradicting evidence/witness testimony, even officer Darren(Murdering/Racist) Wilson(OMG) changed his story about knowing/not knowing about Michael Brown’s petty theft.
Johnnyboy says…”Ordinarily, prosecutors only bring a case if they think they can get an indictment.”
The prosecutor didn’t have to hand the case to a grand jury and shouldn’t have. He should’ve taken in straight to court. Nonetheless…
Link from above…”Of 162,000 federal cases in 2010, grand juries failed to indict in only 11 of them, according the Bureau of Justice Statistics.”
Knowing that grand jury’s hardly ever fail to indict, we now know why the grand jury failed this time don’t we?
Because the prosecutor didn’t want them to indict, he was more interested in defending the suspect/police officer Darren(Murdering/Racist) Wilson than doing his job as a prosecutor.
Here is another riveting paragraph from my most recent link above…
“According to Adachi, “Wilson’s description of Brown as a ‘demon’ with superhuman strength and unremitting rage, and his description of the neighborhood as ‘hostile,’ illustrate implicit racial bias that taints use-of-force decisions. These biases surely contribute to the fact that African Americans are 21 times more likely to be shot by police than whites in the US, but the statement’s racial implications remain unexamined.”
I pointed this out last week by comparing how the S. Korean media portrays “foreign” English teachers as “demons” which also has racial connotations.
It’s safe to say officer Darren Wilson put in much time and had much help at preparing his 4 hour speech to the grand jury. But he didn’t really need to practice much because the prosecutor helped him by continuously asking him leading questions on and on and on and on!!!
“Brown had likely committed petty theft – a non-violent misdemeanor, not a felony.”
The gentle giant myth is wearing thin.
He assaults the clerk and then menaces him with further threats.
“The use of physical force in a robbery. If someone is stealing, and another person makes an attempt to stop them, and then physical force is used to complete the act that is strong-arm robbery.”
“All types of robberies are serious crimes. Robbery is almost always a felony, punishable by at least one year in prison, regardless of the value of the items taken. Most states punish aggravated robbery, including armed robbery, carjacking, and home invasion robbery, quite harshly. Sentences of ten or 20 years in prison or more are not uncommon.”
The gentle giant was a less-than gentle felon… and it is highly unlikely it was his first shy attempt.
Watch the video for yourself. The action is at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2z5-H8NSGA
Anybody who rationalizes, justifies, accepts, promotes, or makes excuses for this behavior, or the people who engage in it, speaks more about themselves than anything else.
For sure, robbery doesn’t warrant an automatic, instantaneous death sentence. I never suggested as much. It does speak to someone’s character, though. It shows that the man was capable of criminal violence and undoubtedly would have been admissible if it had gone to trial.
I didn’t say that prosecutors typically only put forth cases that are slam dunks. The article I linked to did. I believe it’s probably true, though.
That’s why I said in other circumstances where the case didn’t have so much publicity -like the case where an unarmed white man was shot and killed by police http://wreg.com/2014/11/25/salt-lake-cop-cleared-in-shooting-of-unarmed-white-man – the average prosecutor wouldn’t have gone to a grand jury, a preliminary, or a trial because the burden of proof would have been difficult to meet.
Believe it or not, it’s lawful for the police to shoot unarmed citizens when threatened or assaulted.
Did Michael Brown assault the officer initially? That is what the forensic evidence and logical thinking points to.
Was he preparing to assault the officer again? We may never know, and likely never would have known for sure even if it had gone to trial, but the average person would usually find an officer with a clean record more credible than a young man who had just robbed and assaulted a convenience store clerk.
I am not staunchly defending this officer. I do believe that officers make mistakes and kill innocent people. After likely being viciously attacked and with adrenaline pumping, he may have been a little bit too quick to pull the trigger, but neither I, or any of us here can say for sure.
When it comes to the uncertainty of the events, and taking into account the events leading up to and all the physical evidence involved, I find it hard to believe this played out like many in the black community are claiming.
Johnnyboy says…”Did Michael Brown assault the officer initially? That is what the forensic evidence and logical thinking points to.”
What forensic evidence? Dummy officer Darren Wilson bagged his own gun and washed his own hands. The gun was NOT fingerprinted(although supposedly MIchael Brown grabbed it) AND supposedly there was DNA gun evidence but we NEVER heard what the results were and I wouldn’t believe the results anyway because…
1)The Dummy Murdering Racist officer Darren Wilson bagged his own gun(against protocol).
2)The Dummy Murdering Racist officer Darren Wilson drove away from the crime scene all by himself(against protocol).
3)The Dummy Murdering Racist officer Darren Wilson washed his own hands(against protocol).
4)Given the officer’s lack of protocol how or why would I believe he knows what police brutality/deadly force etc…is?
5)The first officer to interview the Dummy Murdering Racist didn’t record the conversation or take notes because he said…”I had multiple things going through my head besides what Darren was telling me.”
6)The medical legal examiner who supposedly analyzed the crime scene didn’t take measurements because he said…”somebody shot somebody” which is “self explanatory.”
7)The Dummy Murdering Racist officer Darren Wilson used racial slurs calling the dead Michael Brown a “Hulk like Demon,” who had “Superhuman Strength and Unremitting Rage” and lived in a “Hostile” neighborhood.
8)The Dummy Darren Wilson didn’t ever try using his baton, mace, or a stun gun and gave poor excuses as to why.
9The Dummy Darren Wilson changed his story about whether he knew that Brown was suspected of stealing cigarillos before stopping him.
10)Reason # 9 gives me justification to throw out anything/everything the Dummy Darren Wilson said unless there was absolute positive without a doubt evidence which Darren Wilson ain’t got.
11)The Dummy Darren Wilson is a gun murdering wimp who was scared of a young kid the same height as him.
12)The Dummy and Wimpy Darren WIlson said he got hit in the face while sitting in his car but the only mark on his face was on the right side of his face not the obvious left side which everyone would expect.
And according to the key eyewitness and the person I believe most said…
http://truth-out.org/news/item/27699-prosecutor-manipulates-grand-jury-process-to-shield-officer
“After reviewing the transcripts and evidence in the Wilson case, San Francisco Public Defender Jeff Adachi noted:
Dorian Johnson, the key witness who was standing next to Brown during the encounter, provided strong testimony that called into question Wilson’s claim that he was defending his life against a deranged aggressor. Johnson testified that Wilson, enraged that the young men did not obey his order to get on the sidewalk, threw his patrol car into reverse. While Wilson claimed Brown prevented him from opening his door, Johnson testified that the officer smacked them with the door after nearly hitting the pair. Johnson described the ensuing struggle as Wilson attempting to pull Brown through the car window by his neck and shirt, and Brown pulling away. Johnson never saw Brown reach for Wilson’s gun or punch the officer. Johnson testified that he watched a wounded Brown partially raise his hands and say, “I don’t have a gun” before being fatally shot.”
“He assaults the clerk/use of physical force in a robbery”
The act was done, the petty theft had already been committed. The clerk broke protocol by trying to stop a petty thief at the exit door with force, the police advises against such behavior.
It was petty theft, he bent over and grabbed a box of smokes. He did not assault him at that point and when someone(store clerk/owner) jabbed his elbow into the chest of Michael Brown while trying to block the exit(against the law), he barely pushed him with one hand. America ain’t like S. Korea, in the good ole USA people can defend themselves. If someone jabbed their elbow in my chest as I was walking out the door I’d push whoever did that to me too.
If you call that a felony then I’m sure you’re a felon. Heck, if S. Korean male students went to school in America for 1 week most of them would be put in jail(by your standards) for a one handed slight push at the least and more likely hitting other students.
The one-handed push was a natural response/defense mechanism from being elbowed/arm jabbed in the heart/chest.
So the small person(Asian store clerk/owner?) had the cojones to confront/jab his elbow into Michael Brown’s heart/chest but the big/tall police officer was too afraid to use anything other than a gun? Hmmm, sounds fishy to me!
The little store clerk(Asian/Arab/Indian/Mexican man?) acted more like a police officer than the punk Darren Wilson(even though he disobeyed police advise), which is why the punk resigned from the police force. Good riddance you racist murdering punk!
Chickenhead, would you disobey the police too like the store clerk/owner?
I’m not sure how accurate the claim is but the crime scene investigator has stated that either DNA or fingerprinting could be done on the weapon. It was determined Brown’s blood was on the gun as well as inside the vehicle, giving credence to Wilson’s claims of the altercation inside the vehicle.
You can say you don’t believe the results because officer Wilson is racist, but he didn’t perform the DNA testing.
Personally, I don’t believe that the officer rolled up on these two and then attempted to pull Brown in through the window. That’s not the best position to fight someone from so I doubt he would initiate a conflict in that manner. I can’t find anything that shows injuries to the back of Brown’s neck consistent with being yanked through a car window as Johnson has suggested. That supposed act in itself would be a difficult feat for Wilson to perform and sustain with someone as large as Brown.
Saying someone is large, strong, and has angry looking eyes isn’t racist. The Hulk is green, not black.
Officer Wilson wasn’t carrying a taser. Even if he was, a taser is only good for one use. He initially stopped two individuals and probably didn’t know exactly where the other was at the moment. Suppose he had brandished a taser and engaged Mike Brown, only to be engaged by Dorian Johnson with his firearm still holstered.
The point is, the police aren’t required to fight fair “like a man.” They are going to do what they need to do to come home at the end of the night. If you become involved in an altercation with a police officer, you can expect to be shot.
Wilson probably was scared of a man the same height as him. If he’s smart, he would be wary of anyone he approaches in the line of duty, regardless of size. You never know what people are capable of or what they are carrying.
Why would you expect that Wilson wouldn’t have a mark on the right side of his face? I don’t know which hand Mike Brown favored, but a mark on Wilson’s right side would indicate a decently thrown left hook on Brown’s part. Unless Wilson claimed that Brown threw right handed punches exclusively or that he faced forward during the whole engagement for some reason, there is no reason to suggest that Wilson wouldn’t have contusions on the right side of his face.
If Wilson stopped to talk to Brown and Johnson and had tried to exit the vehicle, then he had put the vehicle in park. People may say that he should have driven away, but that may either not have occurred to him or he may not have had enough time if Brown was already engaging him inside the vehicle. It’s probably difficult to shift gears when blocking punches with both hands.
We can all say how we would react in certain conditions but there’s an old saying in boxing: “Everyone has a plan until they get hit.”
Suggesting that Mike Brown was defending himself from the store owner is ludicrous. Store owners can absolutely attempt to detain you to prevent the loss of their property. Wal-mart has employees dedicated to that sole purpose. They will prevent you from leaving with merchandise.
The man attacked a victim during a theft. That’s fairly cut and dry by the law’s standards. When using force or the threat of force to overcome the active resistance of a victim, the offense is labelled strong-arm robbery.
It is a fruitless effort attempting to defend what is plainly evident on the security tapes.
Blaming the store clerk for trying to stop a robbery…classy…
“Saying someone is large, strong, and has angry looking eyes isn’t racist. The Hulk is green, not black.”
“angry eyes?”
Sorry but according to Darren Wilson, Michael Brown didn’t have eyes = Non-human.
How can you get your quotes so wrong?
The color is not important since everyone knows Michael Brown is black, Wilson would be a bigger idiot than he already is to suggest Michael Brown turned green momentarily.
How could MIchael Brown have been all these things when he was “very high on mariuana?” He was so gentle a little Asian man wasn’t scared of him?
Chickenhead exaggerates and you intentionally tone it down, congrats! I guess you’re just trying to be obtuse. You forgot “Demon” which isn’t human, and “superhuman” which isn’t human and for a reminder…
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/11/darren_wilson_s_racial_portrayal_of_michael_brown_as_a_superhuman_demon.html
“When I grabbed him the only way I can describe it is I felt like a 5-year-old holding onto Hulk Hogan,” said the 6-foot-4, 210-pound Wilson
“had the most aggressive face. That’s the only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that’s how angry he looked.”
In Wilson’s account, Brown punched like Balrog, with enough force to kill him outright.
But Brown wasn’t down. Instead—like a villain, or perhaps, an evil mutant—he appeared stronger than before.
Wilson describes an almost animalistic Brown, who—like Wolverine—had gone into a kind of berserker rage. He made “a grunting, like aggravated sound,” Wilson said. “I’ve never seen anybody look that, for lack of a better word, crazy,” he explained. “I’ve never seen that. I mean, it was very aggravated … aggressive, hostile … You could tell he was looking through you. There was nothing he was seeing.”
store clerking 101 ~ Don’t physically get involved if a petty thief steals from you, that is what almost every store owner tells there employees because that’s what the police says dummy. It ain’t me who says it. If my store owner didn’t tell me that and rather told me to put myself in between a thief and whatever item or the door with the use of my elbow jammed to the heart/chest then I could sue his dumbazz for everything he had.
Tbone is just trolling.
The concepts he is promoting are so far removed from reality, it is not possible for anyone to think in that way and still function in society.
You can think in this way, or most any other, if you are on public assistance in the ghetto and have no goals or obligations.
You can’t really believe this and hold a meaningful job. Any job that required making good decisions or interaction with the working world would be difficult for someone so far removed from it.
It is good that Tbone has drawn out a lot of sensible information from Johnnyboy. It is also good for Tbone to have intentionally, or unintentionally, given insight into how far too many voting Americans think… primarily poor and uneducated ones, but also a surprising number of middle class offspring that are poor and miseducated.
There are likely some good examples of white cops abusing (relatively) innocent minority (and white) citizens that the population can, or SHOULD, rally around.
Michael Brown is not a good example… and those who mindlessly champion him speak negatively about themselves, their cultures, and their value system.
Except for tbone’s drunken ramblings, this has been one of the better threads here lately. One small addition to Chickenhead’s rules…if stopped by the police, I also pull out my concealed carry permit along with my drivers license and alert the officer that I have the permit and that there is a loaded firearm in the vehicle.
Nomad, the day you provide as many links/information/opinions as I have on a relevant nationwide topic is the day you’re not drunk or doing drugs, And of course you may choose any subject you want twiddling thumbs. But the problem with you is that you got no opinion on anything, the only thing you can come up with is an attack on me and stupid advice for Chickenhead.
Chickenhead failed to answer my question about ignoring the advise of police as the store clerk did when he did not “AVOID VIOLENCE,” “DON’T TRY TO BE A HERO,” “YOU ONLY EARN MINIMUM WAGE”(store clerking 101) when he placed himself in front of and/or between a petty thief(“superhuman hulk like demon” and the exit door.
I’ll repeat…
Chickenhead, would you disobey the police too like the store clerk/owner(in Ferguson County Missouri after a petty theft incident)?
Answer the question Simpleton or would it be contrary to your long(I obey/respect the police etc…) diatribe which I stopped reading after the first or second paragraph, I didn’t even get to your numbered points.
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/robbery_convenience/
“Injuries can result from an employee’s active resistance…When faced with an employee who chooses to actively resist and is in a face-to-face confrontation, robbers may resort to injuring the worker to avoid apprehension. Higher injury rates are consistently found to be correlated with measures employees take during the robbery.”
Perfectly illustrates why that hagwon owner kicked out Tbone. Man.. talk about victimization complex… lol..
You know what? I’m glad that white policeman got rid of that big ugly black MothaFker. They are useless in society anyway. Really the US needs an ethnic cleansing and get rid of all the lazy blacks like Tbone.
People are free to ignore advice from the police. People are not free to ignore local, state and federal laws. That distinction is very important.
I find it odd that you would focus on a store owner’s actions while being robbed. He responded in a way which you say police advise against but there are no laws against it that I am aware. Again, Wal-mart has a team of people at every store that will keep people from exiting the building with stolen merchandise.
I also find it odd that you whitewash Brown’s actions which are clearly caught on tape and are clearly legally and morally wrong.
I don’t know exactly how the shooting went down and I readily acknowledge that. It may have been a bad shoot. Judging by all the facts that we do know, I believe the officer’s version. Even if I didn’t, I would still recognize there is probably not enough there to convict Wilson on any charges.
I am guessing most prosecutors wouldn’t pursue this case because they wouldn’t want to lose taxpayer money on a conviction that likely would not be won.
I do know what happened in that store. It surely doesn’t justify execution on the spot, but it may help explain Michael Brown’s character or his state of mind that day.
I can admit there is a possibility that Wilson was in the wrong. I don’t think so, but none of us knows for sure.
Why can’t you admit that Michael Brown violently robbed a convenience store and was able and willing to put hands on other people?
It looks like the activists and protesters latched onto a case that really wasn’t the best choice to get their point across. Oscar Grant may have been a better choice to rally behind.
This incident in Salt Lake City I would say is much more concerning than the Michael Brown case:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=31772096
However, the victim in this incident was white thus no ratings in it for the national media to sensationalize. With that said the victim in this shooting once again was not blameless. He did not respond to commands from the police officer while the other two men did and were not shot. Fortunately Salt Lake City police wear body cameras which in today’s media environment this should become mandatory for police to wear.
We would probably have never heard of Michael Brown if officer Wilson had a body camera on or even a a camera in his vehicle.
Tbone,
A few points to ponder:
– Nomad is one of the nicer and more sensible guys you might come across on the internet. Johnnyboy has had an exemplary mild and patient tone in response to your babbling hate. For the amusement of all, tease and insult me as much as you wish… as I certainly have it coming… but you do yourself no favors by treating them the same way you respond to me.
– Links don’t mean much, Tbone. Most of the media is no longer interested in analyzing a situation honestly. They are interested in giving extreme opinions… which they might not really even believe themselves… as the more outrageous they are, the more attention they get.
If you have an opinion on a matter, clearly state your idea and support it with facts.
If someone questions your facts, supply links… though, unless the information is complex or difficult to come by, links are increasingly unnecessary as verification is a 15 second Google search away for anyone looking to call BS. If someone questions your analysis, form a better argument and approach the support of your idea from a different angle.
There are a lot of things in the gray area of life that are hard to resolve… but you might be able to push people a bit toward your way of thinking with a reasonable argument… even if it is a delayed response.
(I take pride that through mild debate and positive example, I turned two rabid anti-gunners into two rabid gun collectors simply by demonstrating that it is people that are bad rather than the tools they use to be bad… plus guns are really, really, really fun).
Anyway, it is meaningless to push links to opinionated writing that ignores or misrepresents large parts of the bigger picture with the intention of pushing the story in a false direction. I can go read that nonsense without you… but I don’t want to argue with Rachael Madcow or Keith Olbermann… as they don’t even pretend to be pushing a balanced opinion based on reality.
– Tbone, you might consider that there is a difference in the response of a minimum wage clerk and a shop owner who is watching money (he has worked hard for) leaving the store with someone who has not worked hard for it.
Further, you might notice that some people, even lowly minimum wage clerks, take pride in their job and have a sense of ownership in the business (due to good management)… so they are willing to have some personal risk to protect the company assets. And some people have a sense of pride that keeps them from being taken advantage of… and some people have a sense of right and wrong to the point they will go out of the way to stop somebody doing wrong.
Considering your work history (and police record… for some kind of thievery in one case, no less), I can see how these would all be a foreign concepts to you. But they do exist.
Nomad,
I am not sure if volunteering that information is correct or not. I suspect it is not… as a good general rule with cops is ADMIT NOTHING you don’t have to.
If asked if there are weapons in the vehicle, it might be correct to explain you have a concealed carry permit and where the weapon is located… without removing your hands from the steering wheel and making sudden moves to retrieve your permit from your wallet.
Again, I would likely place the gun under the seat as soon as I was stopped instead of keeping it on my person… as, if asked to step out of the car, explaining to the cop that you have placed your firearm under the seat after being stopped, to “make his job easier and less stressful in this day and age”, will be much more appreciated than him having to tell you to put your hands on the hood so he can dig a Pfeifer Zeliska out of your plumber’s crack.
The stories I related are back before there was much concealed carry. In some states, it was illegal to have a concealed firearm in the car and in other states it was legal… but, if asked to step out of the vehicle, it would be immediately illegal… and be a complication in explaining it… or a bigger complication in not explaining it but getting caught.
Concealed carry has taken all of that tedious nonsense away… and appears to have taken a dent out of the types of crimes it was intended as a response to.
Tom,
“the US needs an ethnic cleansing”
…cue: “so does Canada to get rid of all those Asians… ha ha ha”.
There must be an auto quote-and-respond-to-Tom button somewhere on ROK Drop.
“Why can’t you admit that Michael Brown violently robbed a convenience store and was able and willing to put hands on other people?”
Okay now Louis Farrakhan stop your exaggerating. I watched the video twice and saw the store clerk/owner jabbing his elbow/arm into Michael Brown’s heart/chest in an attempt to block the doorway.
Didn’t you see that, or are you blind? Do you see through things/videos/people like Darren Wilson says Michael Brown saw/looked through him?
Anyway, it’s against the law(fire hazard) to block any exit doorway. Walmart employees are there to greet customers silly. Read their job description/responsibilities, you might learn something or want to be one now since they don’t have to physically assault customers.
http://www.job-applications.com/walmart-greeter/
They’ve never stopped me by jabbing their elbows/arms into my heart/chest and they couldn’t block the doorway because there are two of them and they’re too wide.
Michael Brown reacted to the physical assault against him by the store clerk/owner by slightly pushing him out of the way with his non-dominant hand.
See the Slate link(page 2), I provided above…
“More troubling is Wilson’s physical description of Brown, which sits flush with a century of stereotypes and a bundle of recent research on implicit bias and racial perceptions of pain. In so many words, Wilson describes the “black brute,” a stock figure of white supremacist rhetoric in the lynching era of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The southern press was rife with articles attacking the “Negro Beast” and the “Big Black Brute,” notes Philip Dray in At the Hands of Persons Unknown: The Lynching of Black America. To the white public, the “black brute” was a menacing, powerful creature who could withstand the worst punishment. Likewise, in northern papers, it was easy to find stories of “giant negroes” who “spread terror” and rampaged through urban centers. That image never went away; it lingers in crack-era stories of superpowered addicts and teenaged superpredators, as well as rhetoric around other victims of police brutality. “Jurors in the Rodney King beating trial were warned early on that the black motorist was not on trial,” notes a March 29, 1993 wire story on jury deliberations, “Yet they have heard King compared to a ‘monster,’ a ‘Tasmanian devil’ and a man with ‘hulk-like strength.’ ”
More troubling is Wilson’s physical description of Brown, which sits flush with a century of stereotypes and a bundle of recent research on implicit bias and racial perceptions of pain. In so many words, Wilson describes the “black brute,” a stock figure of white supremacist rhetoric in the lynching era of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The southern press was rife with articles attacking the “Negro Beast” and the “Big Black Brute,” notes Philip Dray in At the Hands of Persons Unknown: The Lynching of Black America. To the white public, the “black brute” was a menacing, powerful creature who could withstand the worst punishment. Likewise, in northern papers, it was easy to find stories of “giant negroes” who “spread terror” and rampaged through urban centers. That image never went away; it lingers in crack-era stories of superpowered addicts and teenaged superpredators, as well as rhetoric around other victims of police brutality. “Jurors in the Rodney King beating trial were warned early on that the black motorist was not on trial,” notes a March 29, 1993 wire story on jury deliberations, “Yet they have heard King compared to a ‘monster,’ a ‘Tasmanian devil’ and a man with ‘hulk-like strength.’ ”
Oops, I copied/pasted the same paragraph twice. This is the other one I wanted to include(again from the page 2 Slate link above…
“The idea that Brown could resist bullets is also familiar. In a recent paper, researchers found that whites are more likely to attribute superhuman abilities—like enhanced strength and endurance—to blacks than any other group. That, the authors assert, might explain some of the white tolerance for police brutality. “Perhaps people assume that Blacks possess extra (i.e., superhuman) strength which enables them to endure violence more easily than other humans.” Add to this what we know about implicit bias—that most people perceive blacks as more violent and dangerous than other groups—and you have a Darren Wilson narrative that reads like a textbook case of racial projection.”
Everybody should watch the Dillon Taylor shooting as a lesson about how to (not) deal with cops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1UjKqzVDCw
Heroes: Hands visible… nonthreatening posture… no movement… allow cops to believe they control the situation
Result: Cops ignore them.
Zero: As soon as he sees the cop car, he quickly tries to leave the scene… quickly walks away from cops giving commands… talks smack… hands are unpredictable… manipulating concealing clothing
Result: 9mm holes make for lost souls
When there is all the media hype by touchy-feely liberal talking heads or chickenhawk conservatives who are so far removed from reality that they have no idea what cops have to deal with… and don’t really WANT to have an idea what cops have to deal with… it is irritating… as they spread this misinformation to everyone… and laws actually get made based off misconceptions.
Again, race plays a very small roll in police decisions. Action and appearance are by far the biggest indicators of who needs special attention. Anybody can watch that video and immediately recognize who needs to be targeted before the cop even gets out of his car.
Cops are masters of this process.
So are elementary school teachers (at least with children).
There is a very, very good chance that Michael Brown demonstrated some behavior (beyond walking in the street and being a biitch about it) that was worthy of extra attention.
The media always wants to focus on race when looking at WHY there was interaction with the black criminal to begin with… but the reality is that it is about appearance and behavior. Those without such skills will never understand.
Chickenhead, you clearly only want to see/believe what you want. You don’t need to lecture me about Nomad attacked me I did not attack him unless you count using his words against him?
And for you to lecture me on hate is another misnomer on your part and actually hypocritical. Besides, can’t your so-called friends take care of themselves? Do they need you? Who made you Mr. Bodyguard protector of all who attack me?
When you start your drivel comment as you did do you really think I’m going to read anymore? Links are much better than reading your tripe.
GI Korea,
“However, the victim in this incident was white thus no ratings in it for the national media to sensationalize.”
Do you know the name of the privileged white man who was shot? I didn’t think so, if you and more whites did perhaps it would make the media. You see, when black kids/men get shot by the mostly white police, black people learn the names of those individuals, they react and thus their names get in the paper/news. I usually cheer for the underdog, the media reports stories about the non-privileged when all things are equal.
“…which in today’s media environment this should become mandatory for police to wear.”
They should wear mace and stun guns/tasers too but not if they’re too uncomfortable as in the case with Darren Wilson. Yeah, he had his baton as well but why use that when he can just gun down superhuman monster like demons? Instead of killing an unarmed teenager that I allowed to approach my police car drivers side door window, hit me, and grab for my gun, I would’ve just slammed it in reverse or drive.
Ferguson Missouri cops won’t be wearing body cameras because they’re too uncomfortable!
What white people need to know, and do, after Ferguson
Benefiting from white privilege is automatic. Defending white privilege is a choice.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/28/what-white-people-need-to-know-and-do-after-ferguson/
When a black boy is shot by police or when a black community is neglected (as in the response to Hurricane Katrina), pundits and politicians often call for a national “conversation” on race. That conversation never seems to continue. It happens episodically, often in moments of desperation when black frustration seems ready to boil over. If white people were also demanding that conversation happen, not just reactively but proactively, the discussion might really happen. But that would mean we’d have to want the conversation, and with it the critique of our racial group and dynamics, rather than a defensive dismissal that we had nothing, personally, to do with the most recent tragedy…
Responsibility isn’t the same as culpability.
…On Twitter, some white people have responded to the Ferguson-inspired rallying cry “Black Lives Matter” with the hashtag #AllLivesMatter — as if the Ferguson protesters have been somehow arguing otherwise. No, they were arguing that black lives also should matter, equally, in a country that often reveals otherwise. The irony is that while many white folks criticize black activists for being “race hustlers,” supposedly injecting race (“playing the race card”) into the conversation where it doesn’t belong, white people are the ones who often construe these conversations in unnecessarily dichotomous racialized terms…
…But somehow when black people stand up for their rights, sensible white people have a knee jerk defensiveness that “their own group” is under attack.”
Chickenhead, in the Salt Lake case the person shot was drunk and had a warrant out for his arrest which is probably why he tried to walk away and was acting unpredictable. The body camera clearly showed the cop reacted the way he is trained.
Here is another police shooting incident where the guy holding the pellet gun in Wal-mart did not even have a chance to react to police commands:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/25/mass-shooting-hysteria-and-the-death-of-john-crawford/
It seems like police need to at least give a guy a chance to respond to police commands before shooting.
GI Korea, don’t bother with your links because Chickenhead says “Links don’t mean much.”
Oh, and here are more of his rules to follow…
“If you have an opinion on a matter, clearly state your idea and support it with facts.
If someone questions your facts, supply links…”
4 Dead Unarmed Men and the Police: What You Need to Know
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/_4_dead_unarmed_men_and_the_police_what_you_need_to_know.html
“You should recognize these names. They all belong to unarmed black men who were killed by law enforcement since July 2014 for seemingly inexplicable reasons: allegedly selling loose cigarettes, allegedly holding a toy gun in the toy section of Wal-Mart, allegedly running away after a scuffle with the cops, and allegedly complying with police and lying down on the street.
All of these cases are in varying stages of investigation. Here’s a roundup of what you need to know about each one: ”
Well, the cops are certainly keeping the writers busy.
I wasn’t referring to the greeters, Tbone. There are employees called asset protection and they are allowed to detain you and arrest you if you are caught shoplifting.
In watching the video yet again it is evident that Brown was the aggressor. The clerk positions himself between Brown and the door and appears to be telling Brown to pay for the cigars. Any reasonable person would recognize that Brown walks into the clerk. The clerk doesn’t throw an elbow. As Brown walks into him he already has his left hand up ready to push the clerk.
Tbone, if he pushed the clerk for fire safety and as a natural reaction to being so viciously accosted by the clerk, then why did he turn around and walk the clerk down in a threatening manner again?
I find it odd you are going to such great lengths to defend a criminal act that is caught on tape and would be prosecuted as such were Brown still alive.
I’m not trying to push a narrative about an entire race of people. I am focusing on a particular incident.
GI Korea,
“the guy holding the pellet gun in Wal-mart did not even have a chance to react to police commands”
As is typical in these cases, the media lies… or misleads/omits/misdirects to continue building a false narrative that white cops are out hunting innocent blacks.
John Crawford, the pellet gun carrying guy who was shot, was given a chance to react to police commands… and he did… in very much the wrong way.
He was instructed to drop the gun. Instead of doing so, he said, “It’s not real” while moving the gun upward.
Police have fractions of a second to make good decisions. Shooting him was a good decision… just as shooting the white guy in the previous video was a good decision.
Let’s look at the problems:
1) The pellet gun comes with packaging which not only has the price and barcode for purchase, but also makes it look non-threatening as you walk around a store or across a parking lot. There is no reason for it to be out of its packaging except perhaps to inspect it temporarily back in the section that sells BB guns. Carrying something around a store that looks very much like a gun is inviting trouble. And trouble he got.
2) His actions are odd. While it is unclear exactly what he was up to with the pellet gun, he was very careless with it… waving it around and poking at things on shelves. Combined with no packaging, this action would certainly make cautious people take notice in a single glance… and the smart ones wouldn’t stick around to learn more about the situation… but would simply call the police and let them sort it out. Which they did.
3) In any situation where cops feel they might be killed, it is not a good place to open lengthy negotiations… especially if they have the drop on you and your gun says Crossman and theirs says Colt.
There are probably many ways to spin the video based on the desired outcome for an agenda… but it looks pretty clear.
When the police yell out, he turns his head and looks at them while raising the gun. He then makes a motion almost as if he is going to jump for cover behind the endcap. Then he is shot. This happened very quickly and at some point, according to his relatives who were on the phone, he told the cops it was not real.
Maybe they heard him… maybe they didn’t.
But what they saw was a guy who did NOT drop the gun and was actually swinging it in an upward motion and making a movement as if to take cover.
I suppose if one is stupid enough to not realize the foolishness of carrying something that looks like a rifle around in a public place where all rifles should have packaging, one is also stupid enough to not realize that cops are going to (rightfully) give you only one chance to shut the fukk up and drop the rifle upon command.
Like Michael Brown, this is a non-issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XYNOTUWfHE
What the public should be more concerned about is the abuse of unnecessary no-knock warrants which cause harm to minority children and family members… but, of course, they also harm white people so it can’t be made into a polarizing and racially dividing issue. The media is all over manufactured scandal of a white cop with a clean record shooting a known criminal and thug in circumstances that seem pretty clear he did the right thing… but ignores real police abuse of citizens from militarized police violence for petty crimes to shady asset forfeiture games.
It is hard to understand how Tbone can idolize a very flawed Michael Brown yet ignore a lot of other people, both white and non-white (if we have to get all racial) who have suffered serious police injustice through carelessness, intent, or a corrupted police culture.
CH,
Your last post is why I am hesitant to agree with people that open carry AR’s in public. I am not even sure which states allow it, but apparently people are trying to push it as a right.
I think it adds to confusion and might cause unnecessary situations as people likely won’t ask if someone has a permit for it. Also, if someone has a holstered weapon visibly displayed, it’s easier to discern their intent than someone who has a rifle slung on their back walking through a retail outlet.
Far be it from me to say what someone should or shouldn’t have as far as the 2nd amendment is concerned, but it just doesn’t seem to pass the common sense test for me.
Johnnyboy, I am a big fan of the Second Amendment… but I agree.
While it is certainly a right to carry an scary black rifle in public, there is a degree of social responsibility that goes with that… and, for the most part, it is highly unnecessary and very inappropriate to carry one in most public situations.
Carrying it strapped to your back is rather non-threatening… as opposed to walking around a store swinging it carelessly… but, unless there is some kind of zombie attack or alien invasion, it is mostly useless in the ultra-vast majority of situations where one might need to cap some homie or something.
Open carry of pistols is fine, but it is not necessarily the wisest thing to do… as it makes one a potential target of several different groups… from guys looking to get the drop on you to steal your nice pistol to anti-gun cops with nothing better to do than hassle a “patriot”.
Concealed carry is great… as it subtly equalizes society and keeps criminals reluctant to be criminal.
A firearm is a tool… and well-done jobs require the right tool. There aren’t too many everyday jobs an AR-15 strapped on a back can do better than a Glock 19 in a belt or a Ruger LCP in a pocket.
Come to think of it, if you really require an AR-15 to take care of business, you likely made a mistake somewhere further back in that day’s decision-making process.
Chickenhead, in the Wal-mart shooting the guy did not seem to me to have much time to react to police commands. If the guy had a real gun with the intent of shooting up the store wouldn’t he have done that already? It seems to me they could have handled it differently. Anyway something should be done about these bb and toy guns that can be easily confused as real weapons. That seems to be the larger issue here that the usual suspects will not want to discuss.
GI Korea,
Despite what the clueless media pushes, time is not at all an issue here. There was no time limit to comply with reasonable demands.
They gave a legitimate command. Had he done nothing, they would have given the command again… just as you saw in the other video where the officer gave the comnand three times until the guy’s action became threatening.
In this case, the police went into the situation mentally and physically prepared to make a decision to shoot at any hint of danger.
They told him to drop it. He swung the barrel up while making a sudden motion with his body. They shot.
There is no mystery here. There is a sensible planned reaction to the situation they encounteted.
So, had it been a real gun, would he have shot up the store already? Who knows what someone with a real gun might do. Nobody knows why he was swinging an unpackaged pellet gun around and that’s an order of magnitude less crazy. Somebody crazy enough to be walking around with a real gun could do anything imaginable. That kind of speculation is best made with the suspect in cuffs.
So how could the cops have handled it differently? What would you have done… while maintaing the idea that protecting your life in the primary goal?
They approached the suspect, maintained cover, and announced themselves with a command to drop it. His immediate reaction was threatening… for which they were prepared to take immediate action against… and they did.
As for BB and toy guns, nothing needs to be done about them. Something needs to be done about people. Show me one situation where somebody wasn’t asking for trouble… walking around a store, waving in a public place, pointing it at people from a car… etc.
Pellet guns must be treated no differently than real guns in terms of safety and social impact. Toy guns are for children… and adults who play with them must undetstand they will likely be mistaken as real… because adults don’t play with toy guns. Children playing guns in the park alarms nobody. Children pointing them threateningly at strangers alarms everybody.
This all seems pretty sensible to me… but others don’t think this way… and they get shot… and blame everybody else for their chain of failure which they brought entirely upon themselves.
Johnnyboy…”I find it odd you are going to such great lengths to defend a criminal act that is caught on tape and would be prosecuted as such were Brown still alive.”
Petty theft…NEXT! Ooops I’m sorry, the police say DEATH be onto YOU!!! I’d prefer stoning but the police prefer GUN death.
CH…”being a biitch about it”
The problem for the police was the color of his skin and his “superhuman(code for non-human) hulk like demon face”
CH…”Despite what the clueless media…”
The only right media is Chickenhead media huh Chickenhead? Oh, and don’t provide links because Chickenhead say so since the media ain’t just ain’t right. I agree that Foxnews ain’t correct but to say ALL media links aren’t worthy, everyone should just talk shyte without providing links is CRAZY=THAT’S CHICKENHEAD.
CH…”Everybody should watch the Dillon Taylor shooting as a lesson about how to (not) deal with cops.”
I’m not going to watch it until or because you haven’t answered my question yet even though you continue to pretend you’re the expert at dealing with police.
So, why don’t you answer a simple question YES or NO? That’s it Chickenhead I don’t want your drivel and tripe afterwards.
If/when you answer my question with a YES or NO, only then will I watch the video you suggest.
CH…”Concealed carry is great”
How about a concealed foot before it goes up your aZZ?
CH…”Like Michael Brown, this is a non-issue.”
This goes to show how outrageous you are! What is an issue to you? People(sorry not your color) across America and around the world/London etc…? think Michael Brown is an issue. You can live in your little idealistic world as long as you want, just let us know when you’ve come out so we can celebrate.
Why don’t you lead an issue going forward? You know, because you got all these followers here on ROKDROP so I’m sure they could all help you lead, right?
It’s terrible for people to demonstrate/protest against police brutality, the killing of unarmed teenagers as young as 12 yrs. old because 12 year olds are to blame when they carry a toy/BB gun around. But when the money of whitey’s is concerned then you’re ready to stand up. Well, Chickenhead, why don’t you lead the whitey’s on a nationwide protest???
Then you can take it worldwide and people elsewhere can tell you…”it’s a non-issue”
Get off your lazy aZZ Chickenhead and put your mouth where your D*** is!!!!!
But I will agree with you about what GI Korea suggested…” Anyway something should be done about these bb and toy guns that can be easily confused as real weapons”
Sure GI Korea, we should take harmless/nearly harmless toy guns away from children because they simply don’t know how to use them nor do they know how to communicate with police officers. 12 year old children should know how to deal with cops(Mandatory 6th Grade(?) Material According to GI Korea?) so that adults can continue playing with their deadly guns.
Problem solved, you should work for the S. Korea education ministry since you have similar priorities…Education is most importantly about the lives of older S. Korean teachers, not about the younger S. Korean students ⊙﹏⊙ (Worried).
I don’t think the NRA would agree with you GI Korea, what would happen if we took away all the toy guns away from children??? Most likely, the NRA would be pissed off and you be atop of their pistofflist for even suggesting the regulation of children GUN toys.
Hey look, no links! Shhh listen to the background Chickenhead applause/backju ʘ‿ʘ
“There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge.”
What was your question again, Tbone?
Chickenhead,
The reason I offer my CCW permit and make the officer aware that there is a loaded weapon in the vehicle is to prevent any surprises. Not that I get stopped on a regular basis, but when I have been, I didn’t want to get asked to step out of the car and then the officer sees or finds my gun, which would in this day and age, could easily turn a routine traffic stop into a possible situation where I’m laying on my stomach, in handcuffs, until things get sorted out. With Tennessee’s finest, you just never know.
Nomand,
Hmmm… I suspect CCW is legal and common now so cops don’t give it much of a thought. Perhaps that is best. I will ask my lawyer friend his advice next time I email… as I am curious what the best practices are these days.
While I get along well with police and have never had a negative experience, I don’t kid myself that there are many crooked ones (though primarily only to crooked people) and there are many more that are looking for trouble… sometimes even when it does not exist.
With things like secret arrest quotas and shady asset forfeiture, my policy is to be polite, be friendly, and say no more than I have to… as the more you talk and the more information you volunteer, the bigger chance of saying something that can be twisted into probable cause to search your vehicle.
Of course only a dumbazz carries open containers, drugs, sawed-off shotguns, etc., in their car… but if you have cash, it can be seized if there is any imaginary reason to pretend it is connected to drugs or terrorism.
I had a friend have his pistol seized with the excuse that it might be stolen (it wasn’t, of course) and when he asked for a receipt, he was given the old “we can do this the easy way or the hard way” line. He took the easy way over a $300 gun… and let them have it… and never saw it again.
I have had my car fine-tooth comb searched twice… once because I had a small pneumatic muffler on the passenger seat (the cop later said it looked like drug paraphernalia due to the screen on the end)… and once because I had a short length of PVC pipe (that looked like a bong from outside the car at night). I followed instructions and was friendly… and nothing came of it.
…though the muffler search was interesting… as it must have been a slow night because soon after being stopped, there were about 3 more cop cars in the parking lot along with a motorcycle cop. I was standing at the front of the car with my hands on my hood. The cop was leaning in the driver’s side door with his azz hanging out. The other cops were watching and chatting.
The mix tape in the auto-reverse cassette deck had a long blank spot on the end that happen to start about the time I got pulled over. While he was searching the car, it reversed and Ozzy quite suddenly screamed his head off at full volume. The cop in the car stood up quickly, arms flailing… and the roof dented upward with a big metallic thunk.
The other cops were howling. I laid on the hood (keeping my hands in place) and cried with laughter.
And that was the end of the search. In fact, I was headed home at 4am after hanging with my girlfriend (no alcohol, of course) so I stayed and chatted with the cops for about 20 more minutes until they got another call.
Anyway, I don’t know what is best these days… but just because I like cops doesn’t mean I trust them.
After the arson, looting, and other violence in Ferguson, Obama invited protest leaders to the White House.
Between this and his support for Al Sharpton… and about a hundred other reasons… it is clear that Obama is really a racist divider lacking in values or class.
He will go down in the history books as an embarrassment rather than a credit to African Americans.
Blacks screamed, ‘Kill the White People!’ before brutal murder of Zemir Begic
http://www.infowars.com/blacks-screamed-kill-the-white-people-before-brutal-murder-of-zemir-begic/
Chickenhead, these toy and pellet guns should be made to look nothing like real guns in order to prevent this confusion. As much as common sense would dictate not to wave a toy gun around that looks real kids, the stupid, mentally ill, etc. will continue to do so. It would make the cops’ job much easier if these toy/pellet guns did not look real.
The guy shot in Wal-mart for all we know may have been drinking or mentally ill to explain his odd behavior. He did not show any aggression to anyone in the store, committed no crime, and the Wal-mart security was actively watching him. It seems the police could have first used the public address system within the store to ask the guy to put the gun down before rushing him and ultimately shooting him.
Denny, I am not saying it isn’t true, but I have a hard time trusting anything coming out of InfoWars.
It is an interesting dynamic though to see the media report this murder as not being racially motivated, but are quick to frame other incidents (ie: Zimmerman, Brown, etc) as being racially motivated.
GI Korea, your suggestion to use the PA is reasonable…
…but the police are heavily militarized in both equipment and mindset… and have a culture of overwhelming force and zero risk.
Making an announcement on the intercom squanders the element of surprise giving the suspect a chance to take cover equal to the police.
If a cop gets shot because the criminal was given a fair chance, there will be consequences. There are fewer concequences for following established procedure of getting the clear drop on him, giving him a clear warning, and solving the problem at the first sign of a threat.
I am against the militarization of the police as much as the next guy… but I agree with it when it is used to protect the lives of police in situations not of their making.
Lazy yet exciting SWAT raids used to arrest someone that could more easily be picked up in a traffic stop by a single cop as they drive to the store to buy smokes are unforgivable… and dead cops is a pleasing byproduct… as they are engaging in thuggish near-criminal behavior.
Police taking decisive steps to protect the public from a possible threat is what the police are actually for.
Blaming realistic looking pellet guns (which IS a real gun to an extent) or trigger happy cops is not correct.
The blame lies fully with the guy walking around in a public place unnecessarily waving a sincerely dangerous weapon.
This is socially unacceptable… equally incorrect with walking around naked or having a hand down a little boy’s pants… except it is far more threatening… and the result is a neutralization of that threat with a response equal to its potential force.
Anybody who truly doesn’t undetstand that it is unacceptable to walk around holding a weapon in a careless or threatening manner, or is unable to predict the possible results, likely does not need to be in society unsupervised.
Shot while holding an umbrella? Cop’s fault. Shot while holding anything intended to look like a gun? Your fault. Shot while holding an umbrella but trying to make it look like a gun? Probably your fault, as well.
In the end, the answer is simple. Use common sense and understand the eorld you live in.
I have to concur with about everything stated by CH regarding COPs – good and bad. I would only add, now that the technology is widespread and affordable, that I really like the idea of LE wearing cameras. It protects the good COPs from bad citizens AND the good citizens from bad COPs.
A protester really changed my thinking about Michael Brown’s poor parents… and so many parents of today’s youth.
http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/RobAStore.jpghttp://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/RobAStore.jpg
Charles Manson was right…
…but a few decades off.
Helter Skelter! The race war has begun.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/12/us-usa-missouri-shooting-protest-idUSKBN0M80CJ20150312
No, Manson was still wrong… But I’m thinking they should hae checked Sharpton and Jackson for gunpowder residue if they were standing next to REPUBLICAN MLK II when he was shot…
Cops keeping public order to stop mobs from looting and burning get jeered and shot as politicians and media cheer it all on.
Cops serving no-knock ultra-violent warrants with dreams of asset forfeiture because a paid snitch (maybe) claimed there was a dime bag of pot in the house get no attention at all.
Ghetto values are not right… and neither are American values…
…perhaps because ghetto values have an increasing influence in politics, news, and entertainment.