It’s going to be a better jet fighter for half the price to maintain than the unreliable money pit, the F-35 which the Americans themselves have said is a technical and financial failure. Just watch in 5 years when the KFX eats up a big chunk of US fighter jet export markets around the world. Once Korea completes their own in-house engine development program in a few years, they’re going to give the GE engine the boot. No longer will the US be able to get away with charging Korea, outrageous amount of money for maintaining and upgrading these US made jet fighters, just because the US feels like it and because they have the monopoly.
J6Junkie
3 years ago
Nice paper marche model.
TOK
3 years ago
This fighter is the brainchild of Kim Daejung, and from Moon’s speech it shows that the existence of nationalistic tendencies among the leftists is alive and well.
Anyways, it remains to be seen whether or not this fighter will make sense in the long run.
Yes, for Korea, it is a remarkable technical achievement and it shows how long this nation has come.
But militarily, it will take some time and money before this fighter can become a fully operational machine that the ROKAF can utilize to meet its objectives. Considering the current strategic situation and the number of ageing jets in addition to the increase of types which will strain maintenance and logistics, I guess some can’t help scratching their heads on why this project has to be done.
Ironically about twenty years or so ago when the ROKAF was trying to decide between the F-15K and the Rafale, they chose the F-15K because it was ready, while the Rafale was still in development.
Fast forward twenty years, we have the same situation, but the ROKAF chose to go along with the KF-21 because the fighter was designed and will be made in Korea, which brings me to my opening sentence.
Flyingsword
3 years ago
South Korea can’t event make its own attack helo….after decades of trying..
TOK..it was people like him who scoffed, even up to last year, when there were talks of Korea developing its own fighter jet. They openly whined why make a 4.5 gen fighter plane that MAY go into operation in 30 years, when Korea can just buy and pay whatever the US asks, they said. The prototypes became real and the specs confirmed and verified – only taking five years from blueprint to physical prototype mode. South Korea developing their own fighter jets does two things:
1) It gives SK more leverage vis a vie the US arms supplier who no longer can jerk South Korea around with expensive upgrades like their recent requirement for South Korea to upgrade the F-35 which is only a year old. The operational rate of South Korea’s F-35’s, and even the F-15K’s are woefully low due to the severe delays in parts and services. The homemade KFX will eliminate the need for Korea to wait 6 months for the US repairman who are paid multi million dollars to change a screw, to be flown in with the new part to replace a broken piece because the US won’t allow the Koreans to touch their own planes that they bought and own. Now the same work can be done in an hour, with Korean made parts. In other words, the US cash cow that is South Korea, is rapidly coming to an end.
2) With home made jet program, the fighter jet when it goes on sale, will be a fraction of the cost of the F-35’s and even the F-15’s (despite all the faulty negative reports from the US and the rightwing Korean media until recently when they foolishly found that they were wrong). For the amount of performance you get for the cost, there will be a lot of countries in Southeast Asia, Middle East, Latin America, and Eastern Europe who are going to be interested in buying these jets. The synergy effect of manufacturing is estimated to be worth 110,000 jobs when the production goes full tilt. The spinoff effect of development of new technology is also HUGE. Overall, the defence industry is going to add big numbers to the GDP – where as that money would have went to supporting US jobs and the US economy if Korea just did what you and other suggests and bought the fighters from the US instead of developing their own. Spending $8 billion to develop this is well worth it, if the returns in the future is much more.
Tencent should take a class on clear, concise, technical communication.
Unless he really is being paid by the words he cuts and pastes.
No one cares where the alleged aircraft was designed. It has yet to be flight-tested. Brag after it passes those tests and there are enough to make a difference.
In other words, what aircraft will the ROK use to defend their freedom if the balloon goes up tonight? Next week? Next year?
Don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched.
liz
3 years ago
It’s going to be a better jet fighter for half the price to maintain than the unreliable money pit, the F-35
The vast majority of costs for new aerial frameworks are due to the initial (proprietary) technology needed to field them. So if one steals that tech, yes indeed it saves a lot of cost.
That said looking like a US airframe does not ipso facto mean it will function like one. We shall see.
Nationalist pissing contests aside, I think stealth technology has Gary Powers style diminishing returns against more contemporary adversary air defenses and everyone is forgetting about the F-117A shoot down in 1999 by a missile developed in the 1960’s. The Gulf War was 20 years ago. I’d spend more on the weapons and detection systems than on the weapons platforms myself.
liz
3 years ago
everyone is forgetting about the F-117A shoot down in 1999 by a missile developed in the 1960’s
And the F117 was 80s technology.
But for the most part, I agree. It isn’t either/or.
A primary objective for those modern day stealth airframes is to take out more advanced anti-aircraft systems before they can reach out and touch ’em. We’ve become so accustomed to air superiority we take it for granted…
It’s definitely not something to take for granted.
Russian tank superiority certainly can’t be taken for granted against the inexpensive Turkish TB2 drone … whose guidance system is based on (now export restricted) Canuckistani technology.
Armenian losses in the 44 day Nagorno-Karabakh War have been calculated at 185 T-72 tanks; 90 armored fighting vehicles; 182 artillery pieces; 73 multiple rocket launchers; 26 surface-to-air missile systems, including a Tor system and five S-300s; 14 radars or jammers; one SU-25 war plane; four drones and 451 military vehicles.
Drones, rockets, guided missiles… Like the longbows of the 15th Century (look up the Battle of Agincourt), armor is susceptible to a barrage of less-expensive attacks.
The problem comes about when, as in June 1950, the defenders rely on obsolete or non-existent countermeasures (hand-held mortar rounds and satchel charges, 2.5″ bazookas, anti-personnel weapons, etc.).
However, I wouldn’t recommend using the Washington Post for anything more than lining bird cages or wrapping fish guts.
—-
Similarly, stealth technology is just another type of armor. The shooting down of the F117 has been described in many places. It was serendipitous. Like Kangaji says, it’s best to have the “cure” available before the “disease” strikes.
—-
Now explain why Korea needs a single, large, slow-moving, high-vaue target (aircraft carrier) on which to place all those expensive aircraft (instead of dispersing them).
Chinese hypersonic missiles to defend their pet rabid border state don’t interfere in your calculations?
TOK
3 years ago
Korean Man mentions the F-15K and the F-35A, yet he does not mention the KF/F-16s which more or less forms the backbone of the ROKAF.
The interesting thing about the F-15K and the F-35A, are that the ROKAF doesn’t really need them.
167 or so KF/F-16s are more than enough to counter any airborne threats from the KPAAF and gain air superiority over the peninsula in time of war.
Heck the South Korean government could have decided to extend the KF-16 production run by producing more KF-16Ds in the Block 52+ configuration(the ones with the extra avionics spine and conformal fuel tanks) to replace the Phantoms and that would have ensured jobs while simplifying logistics and maintenance, and have a platform that can fight tonight. (The Israelis replaced their Phantoms with the F-16I, btw)
So, why the need for F-15Ks and F-35As that are experiencing “severe delays in parts and services”?
Well those two planes were bought because yes, Japan had them. Japan bought F-15s and F-35s, so Korea in its never ending effort to win Japan bought them regardless of whether they are needed or not, and now they are trying to back match them to the overall operational plan.
So pretty much, what Korean Man is saying that the ROKAF shot itself in the foot by buying two fighter types that it doesn’t need and is a handful to operate and maintain and to solve the problem it is buying the KF-21, which will need to tested and proven. In addition it will be years before it is fully operational.
TOK, you’ve nailed it. And the single carrier is exactly the same. The Falklands Campaign showed the world that even the UK needed more than one flught deck to both protect itself and bomb enemy targets. And that was with a Navy that had more than 50 years of carrier experience.
TOK (토착왜구) going by your logic, Korea doesn’t even need an F-16. The F-4 Phantoms would do just as a good of a job when North Korea doesn’t even have a functioning airforce. Heck, why even add any new destroyers to the navy when the North Koreans have rafts as patrol boats? Just leave the Americans to defend South Korea from North Korea and China, and South Korea can save all the money. After all, we all know the American forces will never leave Korea as long as Korea coughs up $5 billion a year to the US coffers, every year.
“With that logic… why even add any new destroyers to the Navy?” the same reason why you name your Hyuga class helicopter destroyer equivalent Dokdo… Dokdo!
TOK
3 years ago
What is it with Korean Man and his refusal to acknowledge the F-16s? Is it because the F-16s were procured by right wing military dictators I wonder.
Korean Man
3 years ago
Same logic as Japan dusting up their long failed F2 and F3 jet fighter program? Why now I wonder when Japan has no technology nor the ability to make one. For them they have no choice but to keep on paying the US whatever the US asks. For Korea it’s going to keep the money and the jobs in the country and it will pave the way for less dependence on the US. Also Korea wouldn’t mind taking a big chunk out of US arms export to the world. Of course the Americans wouldn’t like to see this. They would rather keep Korea under leash and helplessly depended on the US.
Korean Man
3 years ago
The US wants $5 billion to upgrade 29 F-15Ks. The killer part is that it will cost $5 billion to just buy the 29 new upgraded F-15s. Talk about a ripoff. But when you have a virtual monopoly why not, right?
Beijingboy, South Korean leaders, the folks you (allegedly) elected are making these choices. Why don’t you address your sincere disapprobation toward them? No one here has the ability to influence President Moon. You seem to be like the old Simpsons’ joke:
Kangaji, and does South Korea have experience with V/STOVL systems, because the desiugn and maintenance requirements are vastly different than conventional fighter jets. Best short summary of history is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOVL
Oh, and it looks like Dokdo has a sister-ship… also built with a well deck, unlike the 2x Izumo and 2x Hyuga-class ships they supposedly compete against…
Does the “DJ vision” still hold true? There aren’t currently (or planned) enough ships of the specified types to fill out three of these “rapid response fleets” as originally-specified:
In a speech delivered in March 2001, Kim Dae Jung stated that his administration was aiming to build a navy that “will defend the national interests in the five oceans and perform a role in defending world peace.” By the year 2020, the ROK Navy plans to deploy two or three rapid response fleets, each comprising 1 Dokdo class, 2 Sejong the Great class, 4 Chungmugong Yi Sun-sin class, 1 Gwanggaeto the Great class, and possibly a number of Incheon-class frigates and two or three Type 214 submarines.
Inventory (from unclassified sources) compared to requirement for three such fleets:
1. Dokdo-class LPH (flagship) — 1 active, 1 on sea trials (-1)
2. Sejong the Great-class destroyer — 3 active, 3 building (0)
3. Chungmugong Yi Sun-sin-class destroyer — 6 active, no more planned (-6)
4. Gwanggaeto the Great-class destroyer — 3 active, no more planned (0)
5. Incheon-class frigate — 6 active no more planned (0)
6. Type 214 submarine — 9 active, no more planned (0)
In addition, supply/refueling/maintenance ships will need to interact with the “rapid response fleets” and require their own escorts. Actual requirements are probably classified; but they will need more mine warfare and escorts (frigate or larger) regardless of the whole carrier/landing ship schtick… Those are the ships that wear out the fastest in wartime.
t3h Kangaji, South Korea is planning to develop a new carrier group. Your article on the plan to convert the Dokdo class is an outdated article from 2019, well before the new carrier group plan. They’ve not decided yet what size or class the new carrier will be, nor have they decided if it will be a smaller carrier with a virtual takeoff landing pad or will it be a larger carrier with the ski jump. All of a sudden, the UK has voluntarily offered to share their naval carrier technology to South Korea for whatever reason(s) other than money. So all these are still under discussion. With rapid force modernization and advances in South Korea’s weapons development, I don’t think South Korea cares about “keeping up with Japan”. SK’s goal is four-fold:
1) Keep North Korea’s missiles and infiltration attacks on South Korea’s land-based airbases in check by keeping a considerable airstrike ability away from North Korean missiles, and ready to counterattack from any point of the sea, if North Korea launches their missiles including nuclear or biological.
2) Keep South Korea’s military prepared for the future when the US leaves South Korea, against encroachments from both China and Japan who are both enemies (both China and Japan also consider South Korea their enemy so the feelings are mutual). It’s bad idea to think the US will be around forever when they have numerously threatened to leave unless they got protection racket payment. Having a super mobile military with technological ability will give far more options for South Korea in the future if and when the US does decide to play the “if you don’t give us what we want, we’re going to leave and you’ll be screwed if we do” game again.
3) Expand South Korea’s foreign policy role and influence, beyond the Korean peninsula to protect South Korea’s foreign interests, including its vital trade routes, as well as defend South Korea’s soon to start plan to start drilling for oil in the areas where both Chinese and Japanese are claiming as their own. Both China and Japan are watching nervously at South Korea’s huge surge in defence upgrades.
and lastly
4) Expand South Korea’s defence industry to not just modernize and upgrade Korea’s weapons, but also to create hundreds of thousands of high paying jobs for Koreans which will further snowball into strengthening the country’s core technology. And one of the goals is to export the newly developed weapons to Asia, Europe, Latin America, and the Middle East. What Korea offers that other can’t is that Korea can offer weapons that have most bang for the buck. For instance, the Boramae will be half the cost of the F-35, a fraction of the maintenance cost, but offer 90% of features of what the F-35 has. Not many countries will need vertical takeoff features of a F-35, but many countries would be interested to buy South Korea’s Boramae because it’s faster, flies higher, with just as good or even better AESA radar – all with far less cost to buy and operate.
Beijingboy—and I write this with the best possible motivation—learn to summarize, if you want you be persuasive. You have yet to win any converts.
And the 2019 article is newer than DJ’s 2001 speech, so you’re starting off in what looks clearly like ignorant misinformation or just more of your usual bovine scatology…
You are always posting more Beijing agitprop than facts of Seoul. Prove that you’re speaking for the ROK Navy, not the 23rd Guards Rubber Raft Contingent (Spears). Back it up with facts. We prefer other fantasy and science fiction authors.
TOK
3 years ago
In regards to Korean Man’s claim about exporting “the newly developed weapons to Asia, Europe, Latin America, and the Middle East” , Europe isn’t a customer for Korean weapons, and they have their own fighter programs. As for Asian and Latin American countries price is a major factor so when it comes to the “most bang for the buck”, Chinese weapons are the favorite. That leaves us with the Middle Eastern nations , which have already bulked up on American and European made fighters.
So, where is the supposed export market for the KF-21 that Korean Man is claiming?
” Europe isn’t a customer for Korean weapons” – TOK
It isn’t? It ALREADY IS. South Korean-made K9 Thunder self-prop howitzers are being operated around in Poland, Estonia, Norway, Finland, and other non-European countries like India and Australia. Try again.
“As for Asian and Latin American countries price is a major factor so when it comes to the “most bang for the buck”, Chinese weapons are the favorite. ” – TOK
Chinese weapons were a favorite in that part of the world, because they had no choice – they couldn’t afford expensive American weapons. Now that’s changed because South Korea will offer them Western style weaponry for a bit more money than the ultra-cheap Chinese weapons. Look at Phillippines, buying 12 South Korean made FA-50 jets, and two destroyer class ships. Now they want to buy 12 more FA-50’s. Not to mention Indonesia who bought South Korean diesel subs recently, as well as cooperating with South Korea on the K-FX project. Malaysia is also comparing Chinese made J-17 fighter jets with South Korea’s FA-50. Thailand also has 12 R-50 trainer jets which is the predecessor of the FA-50. There’s four Southeast Asian countries right there. And that’s not even counting India which bought K9 Thunders, and now want 100 more K9 Thunders, plus K2 Tanks, as well as Korean made subs. India alone, is turning into a huge customer for South Korea.
In Latin America, Argentina bought 10 FA-50 fighter jets, but the deal was scuttled by the UK which provides the parts for the pilot ejection system for the FA-50. The UK has an arms embargo on Argentina, so they refused to permit the FA-50 export. This is perfectly the reason why South Korea is trying so hard to localize the content and rely less on foreign imported technology. And it’s exactly the reason why South Korea is working right now to eventually replace the American-made GE engine on the KF-X fighter jet, with a domestically produced new engine within the next 5 to 10 years.
“Beijingboy—and I write this with the best possible motivation—learn to summarize, if you want you be persuasive. You have yet to win any converts.”
Aren’t you supposed to get your chemo fix for your stage 4 cancer? Once you finally croak, I bet your “me-love-you long time” wife will go blowing another guy with smelly dick for five bucks.
Queen Ellizabeth II still needs STOVL to work so there should be some kind of sharing of STOVL tech between Britain and South Korea or some line of effort on South Korea’s part to make a STOVL version of Boramae.
I think by the time carriers get fielded for a hypothetical fight over Dokdo that will never happen both sides would end up taking out the carriers with sub and hypersonic missiles.
TOK
3 years ago
Ok, forgot about the K9s there, my bad.
But still, I don’t see the Europeans rushing to buy the KF-21s as Korean Man is strongly claiming.
The K9s as you see hit a sweet spot. It’s more capable than the M109s but cheaper than the Pzh2000s and it is available now. As for the KF-21, although it looks like a mini Raptor it has a long way to go before it evens comes up to the level of the current Block of the F-35A and by that time, the F-35s will be fully operational with the European airforces. For some European countries they would be in the middle or the tail end of development of 6 Gen fighters while the KF-21 would be Gen 5 at the most when development is complete.
As for “South Korea will offer them Western style weaponry for a bit more money than the ultra-cheap Chinese weapons”, well that surely didn’t help DSME win the contract for submarines from Thailand. The Philippines, on the other hand, rejected the Surion and went for Blackhawks(yes not Chinese, but China didn’t have anything comparable) because they were cheaper and obviously gave the “most bang for the buck”
To be fair, yes some Korean weapons will find their place in export markets if and when conditions and prices are right. However that does not mean that the countries of the world are eagerly lining up to buy the KF-21, and even if it comes to a level of 100% domestic components in 5 to 10 years as Korean Man claims, the supposed customers would have snapped up the competition.
One doesn’t have to go far back to remember that when the Surion was rolled out, KAI was giddy with export prospects. Fast forward to 2021, Surion has yet to find an export customer and its current customer ain’t too happy with it, either.
Finally as for “me-love-you long time”, that’s rich coming from someone who is supposedly Korean( or Chinese).
“Oh man, looks like the UK let the cat out of the bag?” – t3h Kangaji
All I read is that a South Korean official denied they’ve begun any talks with the UK. Doesn’t mean the UK cooperation is neither ‘on’ nor ‘off’. I don’t quite understand the UK’s motives for their sudden friendly offers of tech transfers to South Korea.
It doesn’t matter anyway. With or without the UK, SK will have a naval carrier – even if they have to buy the expensive F-35B for the carrier. South Korea will also build new nuclear powered subs, new AEGIS destroyers, new hypersonic missiles, more Hyunmoo 4 missiles, and even a man-made island by pouring concrete on the rocks of Iodo to make it into a large aircraft base island – to protect the soon to start oil and natural gas drillings by South Korean firms. This is all part of the $300 billion military spending spree. America should be happy that South Korea is spending this much on its own defence.
Beijingboy is clearly racist and misogynistic. Makes me think it’s a sock-puppet of the allegedly Bosnian Bowtie guy… Or was that the Croation Cravat? Hard to keep up with the tencent crowd…
“F-35s will be fully operational with the European airforces” – TOK
F-35’s are racked with problems and issues with reliability, and the worst of all, huge maintenance costs that are unsustainable. Even the US is looking at developing a new 4.5 generation fighter jet to complement the expensive F-35. Why don’t they buy the KFX-21? Lol. That would be much cheaper for the US than developing a new one from scratch – which is what you’re arguing.
“well that surely didn’t help DSME win the contract for submarines from Thailand.” – TOK
To be fair though, China offered Thailand, a 30 year loan – it was virtually free for Thailand. It’s hard to compete with that. But Thailand is finding out themselves right about now what kind of quality they got in return buying subs and ships from China. Lol. The quality issues of Chinese made weapons is only going to help South Korea.
“it has a long way to go before it evens comes up to the level of the current Block of the F-35A and by that time” – TOK
The Boramae was never meant to compete with the F-35. But it’s going to be better than the F-16 and F-15 because of the half stealth capability that Boramae has. It will be about 10 years for the final BlockC upgrade which would be a full stealth plane by then. Not every country is going for F-35 strictly. Many countries cannot afford the extravagant costs to buy and maintain them. Some will mix F-35 purchase with a 4th gen fighter. You don’t have drive the Benz everyday. You drive the Benz on the weekend, and then you drive the Hyundai as a commuter car for Monday to Friday.
You are not seeing the entire forest. This is just a beginning for South Korea’s fighter jet program. This is the first crack at building a fully domesticated jet fighter. South Korean engineers are rapidly learning and they will improve. Already, I would argue that South Korea’s production technology to assemble these jets, has now gone way past any of the US jet fighter makers. South Korea’s KAI has automated and robotized much of the work that are still being done by hand to assemble the planes in America. What takes an American worker a week to drill holes, the KAI automation can do it in 5 minutes with greater accuracy. This is why it only took them 5 years to go from blue prints to completed prototype. Don’t be so arrogant that only the US can make good jet fighters, just like how Americans used to believe they’re the ones who can make good cars. We’ll see how wrong you are in few years. The problems that South Korea goes beyond just North Korea who only have nuclear weapons. Preparing for the future is necessary to survive in a very tough unforgiving neighborhood.
“Beijingboy is clearly racist and misogynistic” – setnaffa
Says the old and crippled stage 4 cancer patient.
Racism is a concept created by globalist fascists – chickenhead
ChickenHead
3 years ago
“Aren’t you supposed to get your chemo fix for your stage 4 cancer? Once you finally croak, I bet your “me-love-you long time” wife will go blowing another guy with smelly dick for five bucks.”
Shame on you, Korea Man.
Having observed Setnaffa’s thinking for a long time and even poking at him in the distant past to gauge his reaction, I believe is is a rare sweet and sincere man who does not deserve random shìttiness in a debate that is more technical than political.
Save you personal attacks of that nature for people who won’t denounce pedophilia or those who believe the latest government-sponsored Fear of the Year™ and want to find intrusive ways to make you belive it to… or at least pay for their psychosis.
As far as the topic, I’m old enough to remember when Korea couldn’t make a car… and now they are among the best.
All journeys begin with a first step and I completely support Korea building fighters… as I believe they will master the technology for their intended market within a decade or two… as Korea has many of the developed industries necessary… from semiconductors to metallurgy and a nation of smart and educated people.
(Software, on the other hand… “Korean Aerospace Stealth Weapons Platform proudly powered by ActiveX” or “Incoming Threat Response has crashed. Please reinstall Internet Explorer 4 and try your countermeasure selection again,” are not ideal.)
I’m even rethinking the Korean carrier group if the actual goal is a long-term secret plan to energize the shipbuilding/steel/electronics industries by selling carrier groups on the international market rather than satisfying nationalist fantasies about defending Korea from Dokdo invaders.
TOK
3 years ago
You know in an expat blog that existed years ago, if one of the commentators resorted to personal attacks, the blog owner would ban that person.
Korean Man should count his blessings that the current owner seems to be much more liberal when it comes to commentators resorting to personal attacks.
Relax TOK, personal attacks in here have been the usual in this forum that includes the stage 4 cancer man, who has replied to every one of my posts with a ‘Beijing Boy” Chinese accusations.
Given a certain person denigrates Korean women, toes the CCP line with every post (while accusing others of following a cult of personality), and doesn’t really seem to know about Korea, I thought my remarks apt. And, unlike that individual’s obvious lack of familiarity with South Korea, stages of neoplastic disease, or general societal norms, I know the difference between my arse and a hole in the ground.
I do wonder about his mental and emotional health when he flaps back and forth between being a victim and accusing wives and such of being sex-workers and adulterers using the most offensive language he imagines possible. It sounds as though he either has an online pr0n addiction or a recent breakup. Or both. If I know roughly where he was in Korea (and his primary language), I could recommend professional counseling services.
BTW, having worked around GIs off and on for about 44 years, I’ve heard worse language. Even middle-school kids use worse these days. So try to stretch your vocabulary skills to words that mean something, instead of giving in to your poorly-affected “Tourette’s Syndrome.”
BTW, a useful website for determining cancer stages is
www dot cancer dot net/navigating-cancer-care/diagnosing-cancer/stages-cancer
And a useful site for learning more about traditional Korean culture is
www dot optilingo dot com/blog/korean/korean-culture-an-overview/
Of course, the best way is to make friends with actual South Koreans and others who love that nation. Paying attention to Korean culture can help our ten-cent army friend avoid being accused of “acting like he has no family.”
Must have bought the stolen F22 plans from commie china.
When I see glitzy CGI, instead of actual flight statistics, i think snake oil…
It’s going to be a better jet fighter for half the price to maintain than the unreliable money pit, the F-35 which the Americans themselves have said is a technical and financial failure. Just watch in 5 years when the KFX eats up a big chunk of US fighter jet export markets around the world. Once Korea completes their own in-house engine development program in a few years, they’re going to give the GE engine the boot. No longer will the US be able to get away with charging Korea, outrageous amount of money for maintaining and upgrading these US made jet fighters, just because the US feels like it and because they have the monopoly.
Nice paper marche model.
This fighter is the brainchild of Kim Daejung, and from Moon’s speech it shows that the existence of nationalistic tendencies among the leftists is alive and well.
Anyways, it remains to be seen whether or not this fighter will make sense in the long run.
Yes, for Korea, it is a remarkable technical achievement and it shows how long this nation has come.
But militarily, it will take some time and money before this fighter can become a fully operational machine that the ROKAF can utilize to meet its objectives. Considering the current strategic situation and the number of ageing jets in addition to the increase of types which will strain maintenance and logistics, I guess some can’t help scratching their heads on why this project has to be done.
Ironically about twenty years or so ago when the ROKAF was trying to decide between the F-15K and the Rafale, they chose the F-15K because it was ready, while the Rafale was still in development.
Fast forward twenty years, we have the same situation, but the ROKAF chose to go along with the KF-21 because the fighter was designed and will be made in Korea, which brings me to my opening sentence.
South Korea can’t event make its own attack helo….after decades of trying..
TOK..it was people like him who scoffed, even up to last year, when there were talks of Korea developing its own fighter jet. They openly whined why make a 4.5 gen fighter plane that MAY go into operation in 30 years, when Korea can just buy and pay whatever the US asks, they said. The prototypes became real and the specs confirmed and verified – only taking five years from blueprint to physical prototype mode. South Korea developing their own fighter jets does two things:
1) It gives SK more leverage vis a vie the US arms supplier who no longer can jerk South Korea around with expensive upgrades like their recent requirement for South Korea to upgrade the F-35 which is only a year old. The operational rate of South Korea’s F-35’s, and even the F-15K’s are woefully low due to the severe delays in parts and services. The homemade KFX will eliminate the need for Korea to wait 6 months for the US repairman who are paid multi million dollars to change a screw, to be flown in with the new part to replace a broken piece because the US won’t allow the Koreans to touch their own planes that they bought and own. Now the same work can be done in an hour, with Korean made parts. In other words, the US cash cow that is South Korea, is rapidly coming to an end.
2) With home made jet program, the fighter jet when it goes on sale, will be a fraction of the cost of the F-35’s and even the F-15’s (despite all the faulty negative reports from the US and the rightwing Korean media until recently when they foolishly found that they were wrong). For the amount of performance you get for the cost, there will be a lot of countries in Southeast Asia, Middle East, Latin America, and Eastern Europe who are going to be interested in buying these jets. The synergy effect of manufacturing is estimated to be worth 110,000 jobs when the production goes full tilt. The spinoff effect of development of new technology is also HUGE. Overall, the defence industry is going to add big numbers to the GDP – where as that money would have went to supporting US jobs and the US economy if Korea just did what you and other suggests and bought the fighters from the US instead of developing their own. Spending $8 billion to develop this is well worth it, if the returns in the future is much more.
Tencent should take a class on clear, concise, technical communication.
Unless he really is being paid by the words he cuts and pastes.
No one cares where the alleged aircraft was designed. It has yet to be flight-tested. Brag after it passes those tests and there are enough to make a difference.
In other words, what aircraft will the ROK use to defend their freedom if the balloon goes up tonight? Next week? Next year?
Don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched.
It’s going to be a better jet fighter for half the price to maintain than the unreliable money pit, the F-35
The vast majority of costs for new aerial frameworks are due to the initial (proprietary) technology needed to field them. So if one steals that tech, yes indeed it saves a lot of cost.
That said looking like a US airframe does not ipso facto mean it will function like one. We shall see.
Nationalist pissing contests aside, I think stealth technology has Gary Powers style diminishing returns against more contemporary adversary air defenses and everyone is forgetting about the F-117A shoot down in 1999 by a missile developed in the 1960’s. The Gulf War was 20 years ago. I’d spend more on the weapons and detection systems than on the weapons platforms myself.
everyone is forgetting about the F-117A shoot down in 1999 by a missile developed in the 1960’s
And the F117 was 80s technology.
But for the most part, I agree. It isn’t either/or.
A primary objective for those modern day stealth airframes is to take out more advanced anti-aircraft systems before they can reach out and touch ’em. We’ve become so accustomed to air superiority we take it for granted…
It’s definitely not something to take for granted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCrw_uMWlgI
Russian tank superiority certainly can’t be taken for granted against the inexpensive Turkish TB2 drone … whose guidance system is based on (now export restricted) Canuckistani technology.
Armenian losses in the 44 day Nagorno-Karabakh War have been calculated at 185 T-72 tanks; 90 armored fighting vehicles; 182 artillery pieces; 73 multiple rocket launchers; 26 surface-to-air missile systems, including a Tor system and five S-300s; 14 radars or jammers; one SU-25 war plane; four drones and 451 military vehicles.
Robyn Dixon, Washington Post, November 12, 2020
Check the YouTube videos. Just astonishing.
Drones, rockets, guided missiles… Like the longbows of the 15th Century (look up the Battle of Agincourt), armor is susceptible to a barrage of less-expensive attacks.
The problem comes about when, as in June 1950, the defenders rely on obsolete or non-existent countermeasures (hand-held mortar rounds and satchel charges, 2.5″ bazookas, anti-personnel weapons, etc.).
However, I wouldn’t recommend using the Washington Post for anything more than lining bird cages or wrapping fish guts.
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Similarly, stealth technology is just another type of armor. The shooting down of the F117 has been described in many places. It was serendipitous. Like Kangaji says, it’s best to have the “cure” available before the “disease” strikes.
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Now explain why Korea needs a single, large, slow-moving, high-vaue target (aircraft carrier) on which to place all those expensive aircraft (instead of dispersing them).
Unless Russia intervenes the ROK can troll Kim Jong-eun up the East Coast every day and night.
This will stretch Putin’s naval logistics from the Black Sea to the East Sea.
Win-win for ROKN and USN.
Chinese hypersonic missiles to defend their pet rabid border state don’t interfere in your calculations?
Korean Man mentions the F-15K and the F-35A, yet he does not mention the KF/F-16s which more or less forms the backbone of the ROKAF.
The interesting thing about the F-15K and the F-35A, are that the ROKAF doesn’t really need them.
167 or so KF/F-16s are more than enough to counter any airborne threats from the KPAAF and gain air superiority over the peninsula in time of war.
Heck the South Korean government could have decided to extend the KF-16 production run by producing more KF-16Ds in the Block 52+ configuration(the ones with the extra avionics spine and conformal fuel tanks) to replace the Phantoms and that would have ensured jobs while simplifying logistics and maintenance, and have a platform that can fight tonight. (The Israelis replaced their Phantoms with the F-16I, btw)
So, why the need for F-15Ks and F-35As that are experiencing “severe delays in parts and services”?
Well those two planes were bought because yes, Japan had them. Japan bought F-15s and F-35s, so Korea in its never ending effort to win Japan bought them regardless of whether they are needed or not, and now they are trying to back match them to the overall operational plan.
So pretty much, what Korean Man is saying that the ROKAF shot itself in the foot by buying two fighter types that it doesn’t need and is a handful to operate and maintain and to solve the problem it is buying the KF-21, which will need to tested and proven. In addition it will be years before it is fully operational.
TOK, you’ve nailed it. And the single carrier is exactly the same. The Falklands Campaign showed the world that even the UK needed more than one flught deck to both protect itself and bomb enemy targets. And that was with a Navy that had more than 50 years of carrier experience.
TOK (토착왜구) going by your logic, Korea doesn’t even need an F-16. The F-4 Phantoms would do just as a good of a job when North Korea doesn’t even have a functioning airforce. Heck, why even add any new destroyers to the navy when the North Koreans have rafts as patrol boats? Just leave the Americans to defend South Korea from North Korea and China, and South Korea can save all the money. After all, we all know the American forces will never leave Korea as long as Korea coughs up $5 billion a year to the US coffers, every year.
“With that logic… why even add any new destroyers to the Navy?” the same reason why you name your Hyuga class helicopter destroyer equivalent Dokdo… Dokdo!
What is it with Korean Man and his refusal to acknowledge the F-16s? Is it because the F-16s were procured by right wing military dictators I wonder.
Same logic as Japan dusting up their long failed F2 and F3 jet fighter program? Why now I wonder when Japan has no technology nor the ability to make one. For them they have no choice but to keep on paying the US whatever the US asks. For Korea it’s going to keep the money and the jobs in the country and it will pave the way for less dependence on the US. Also Korea wouldn’t mind taking a big chunk out of US arms export to the world. Of course the Americans wouldn’t like to see this. They would rather keep Korea under leash and helplessly depended on the US.
The US wants $5 billion to upgrade 29 F-15Ks. The killer part is that it will cost $5 billion to just buy the 29 new upgraded F-15s. Talk about a ripoff. But when you have a virtual monopoly why not, right?
Beijingboy, South Korean leaders, the folks you (allegedly) elected are making these choices. Why don’t you address your sincere disapprobation toward them? No one here has the ability to influence President Moon. You seem to be like the old Simpsons’ joke:
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Does Boramae have a VSTOVL option? Because you need one to turn the Dokdo into an aircraft carrier to keep up with Izumo.
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/south-korea-s-carrier-program-is-aimed-squarely-at-japan-new-30-000-ton-assault-ship-with-f-35b-stealth-jets-approved
Kangaji, and does South Korea have experience with V/STOVL systems, because the desiugn and maintenance requirements are vastly different than conventional fighter jets. Best short summary of history is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOVL
Oh, and it looks like Dokdo has a sister-ship… also built with a well deck, unlike the 2x Izumo and 2x Hyuga-class ships they supposedly compete against…
Does the “DJ vision” still hold true? There aren’t currently (or planned) enough ships of the specified types to fill out three of these “rapid response fleets” as originally-specified:
Inventory (from unclassified sources) compared to requirement for three such fleets:
1. Dokdo-class LPH (flagship) — 1 active, 1 on sea trials (-1)
2. Sejong the Great-class destroyer — 3 active, 3 building (0)
3. Chungmugong Yi Sun-sin-class destroyer — 6 active, no more planned (-6)
4. Gwanggaeto the Great-class destroyer — 3 active, no more planned (0)
5. Incheon-class frigate — 6 active no more planned (0)
6. Type 214 submarine — 9 active, no more planned (0)
In addition, supply/refueling/maintenance ships will need to interact with the “rapid response fleets” and require their own escorts. Actual requirements are probably classified; but they will need more mine warfare and escorts (frigate or larger) regardless of the whole carrier/landing ship schtick… Those are the ships that wear out the fastest in wartime.
t3h Kangaji, South Korea is planning to develop a new carrier group. Your article on the plan to convert the Dokdo class is an outdated article from 2019, well before the new carrier group plan. They’ve not decided yet what size or class the new carrier will be, nor have they decided if it will be a smaller carrier with a virtual takeoff landing pad or will it be a larger carrier with the ski jump. All of a sudden, the UK has voluntarily offered to share their naval carrier technology to South Korea for whatever reason(s) other than money. So all these are still under discussion. With rapid force modernization and advances in South Korea’s weapons development, I don’t think South Korea cares about “keeping up with Japan”. SK’s goal is four-fold:
1) Keep North Korea’s missiles and infiltration attacks on South Korea’s land-based airbases in check by keeping a considerable airstrike ability away from North Korean missiles, and ready to counterattack from any point of the sea, if North Korea launches their missiles including nuclear or biological.
2) Keep South Korea’s military prepared for the future when the US leaves South Korea, against encroachments from both China and Japan who are both enemies (both China and Japan also consider South Korea their enemy so the feelings are mutual). It’s bad idea to think the US will be around forever when they have numerously threatened to leave unless they got protection racket payment. Having a super mobile military with technological ability will give far more options for South Korea in the future if and when the US does decide to play the “if you don’t give us what we want, we’re going to leave and you’ll be screwed if we do” game again.
3) Expand South Korea’s foreign policy role and influence, beyond the Korean peninsula to protect South Korea’s foreign interests, including its vital trade routes, as well as defend South Korea’s soon to start plan to start drilling for oil in the areas where both Chinese and Japanese are claiming as their own. Both China and Japan are watching nervously at South Korea’s huge surge in defence upgrades.
and lastly
4) Expand South Korea’s defence industry to not just modernize and upgrade Korea’s weapons, but also to create hundreds of thousands of high paying jobs for Koreans which will further snowball into strengthening the country’s core technology. And one of the goals is to export the newly developed weapons to Asia, Europe, Latin America, and the Middle East. What Korea offers that other can’t is that Korea can offer weapons that have most bang for the buck. For instance, the Boramae will be half the cost of the F-35, a fraction of the maintenance cost, but offer 90% of features of what the F-35 has. Not many countries will need vertical takeoff features of a F-35, but many countries would be interested to buy South Korea’s Boramae because it’s faster, flies higher, with just as good or even better AESA radar – all with far less cost to buy and operate.
Blah, blah, blah…TL;DR
Beijingboy—and I write this with the best possible motivation—learn to summarize, if you want you be persuasive. You have yet to win any converts.
And the 2019 article is newer than DJ’s 2001 speech, so you’re starting off in what looks clearly like ignorant misinformation or just more of your usual bovine scatology…
You are always posting more Beijing agitprop than facts of Seoul. Prove that you’re speaking for the ROK Navy, not the 23rd Guards Rubber Raft Contingent (Spears). Back it up with facts. We prefer other fantasy and science fiction authors.
In regards to Korean Man’s claim about exporting “the newly developed weapons to Asia, Europe, Latin America, and the Middle East” , Europe isn’t a customer for Korean weapons, and they have their own fighter programs. As for Asian and Latin American countries price is a major factor so when it comes to the “most bang for the buck”, Chinese weapons are the favorite. That leaves us with the Middle Eastern nations , which have already bulked up on American and European made fighters.
So, where is the supposed export market for the KF-21 that Korean Man is claiming?
In his mind, TOK… In his mind…
” Europe isn’t a customer for Korean weapons” – TOK
It isn’t? It ALREADY IS. South Korean-made K9 Thunder self-prop howitzers are being operated around in Poland, Estonia, Norway, Finland, and other non-European countries like India and Australia. Try again.
“As for Asian and Latin American countries price is a major factor so when it comes to the “most bang for the buck”, Chinese weapons are the favorite. ” – TOK
Chinese weapons were a favorite in that part of the world, because they had no choice – they couldn’t afford expensive American weapons. Now that’s changed because South Korea will offer them Western style weaponry for a bit more money than the ultra-cheap Chinese weapons. Look at Phillippines, buying 12 South Korean made FA-50 jets, and two destroyer class ships. Now they want to buy 12 more FA-50’s. Not to mention Indonesia who bought South Korean diesel subs recently, as well as cooperating with South Korea on the K-FX project. Malaysia is also comparing Chinese made J-17 fighter jets with South Korea’s FA-50. Thailand also has 12 R-50 trainer jets which is the predecessor of the FA-50. There’s four Southeast Asian countries right there. And that’s not even counting India which bought K9 Thunders, and now want 100 more K9 Thunders, plus K2 Tanks, as well as Korean made subs. India alone, is turning into a huge customer for South Korea.
In Latin America, Argentina bought 10 FA-50 fighter jets, but the deal was scuttled by the UK which provides the parts for the pilot ejection system for the FA-50. The UK has an arms embargo on Argentina, so they refused to permit the FA-50 export. This is perfectly the reason why South Korea is trying so hard to localize the content and rely less on foreign imported technology. And it’s exactly the reason why South Korea is working right now to eventually replace the American-made GE engine on the KF-X fighter jet, with a domestically produced new engine within the next 5 to 10 years.
“Beijingboy—and I write this with the best possible motivation—learn to summarize, if you want you be persuasive. You have yet to win any converts.”
Aren’t you supposed to get your chemo fix for your stage 4 cancer? Once you finally croak, I bet your “me-love-you long time” wife will go blowing another guy with smelly dick for five bucks.
Oh man, looks like the UK let the cat out of the bag?
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/29189/South_Korea__UK_Not_Cooperating_on_Aircraft_Carrier_Tech__DAPA#.YHeD4kutrTo
Queen Ellizabeth II still needs STOVL to work so there should be some kind of sharing of STOVL tech between Britain and South Korea or some line of effort on South Korea’s part to make a STOVL version of Boramae.
I think by the time carriers get fielded for a hypothetical fight over Dokdo that will never happen both sides would end up taking out the carriers with sub and hypersonic missiles.
Ok, forgot about the K9s there, my bad.
But still, I don’t see the Europeans rushing to buy the KF-21s as Korean Man is strongly claiming.
The K9s as you see hit a sweet spot. It’s more capable than the M109s but cheaper than the Pzh2000s and it is available now. As for the KF-21, although it looks like a mini Raptor it has a long way to go before it evens comes up to the level of the current Block of the F-35A and by that time, the F-35s will be fully operational with the European airforces. For some European countries they would be in the middle or the tail end of development of 6 Gen fighters while the KF-21 would be Gen 5 at the most when development is complete.
As for “South Korea will offer them Western style weaponry for a bit more money than the ultra-cheap Chinese weapons”, well that surely didn’t help DSME win the contract for submarines from Thailand. The Philippines, on the other hand, rejected the Surion and went for Blackhawks(yes not Chinese, but China didn’t have anything comparable) because they were cheaper and obviously gave the “most bang for the buck”
To be fair, yes some Korean weapons will find their place in export markets if and when conditions and prices are right. However that does not mean that the countries of the world are eagerly lining up to buy the KF-21, and even if it comes to a level of 100% domestic components in 5 to 10 years as Korean Man claims, the supposed customers would have snapped up the competition.
One doesn’t have to go far back to remember that when the Surion was rolled out, KAI was giddy with export prospects. Fast forward to 2021, Surion has yet to find an export customer and its current customer ain’t too happy with it, either.
Finally as for “me-love-you long time”, that’s rich coming from someone who is supposedly Korean( or Chinese).
“Oh man, looks like the UK let the cat out of the bag?” – t3h Kangaji
All I read is that a South Korean official denied they’ve begun any talks with the UK. Doesn’t mean the UK cooperation is neither ‘on’ nor ‘off’. I don’t quite understand the UK’s motives for their sudden friendly offers of tech transfers to South Korea.
It doesn’t matter anyway. With or without the UK, SK will have a naval carrier – even if they have to buy the expensive F-35B for the carrier. South Korea will also build new nuclear powered subs, new AEGIS destroyers, new hypersonic missiles, more Hyunmoo 4 missiles, and even a man-made island by pouring concrete on the rocks of Iodo to make it into a large aircraft base island – to protect the soon to start oil and natural gas drillings by South Korean firms. This is all part of the $300 billion military spending spree. America should be happy that South Korea is spending this much on its own defence.
Beijingboy is clearly racist and misogynistic. Makes me think it’s a sock-puppet of the allegedly Bosnian Bowtie guy… Or was that the Croation Cravat? Hard to keep up with the tencent crowd…
But easy to see he’s an incel.
“F-35s will be fully operational with the European airforces” – TOK
F-35’s are racked with problems and issues with reliability, and the worst of all, huge maintenance costs that are unsustainable. Even the US is looking at developing a new 4.5 generation fighter jet to complement the expensive F-35. Why don’t they buy the KFX-21? Lol. That would be much cheaper for the US than developing a new one from scratch – which is what you’re arguing.
“well that surely didn’t help DSME win the contract for submarines from Thailand.” – TOK
To be fair though, China offered Thailand, a 30 year loan – it was virtually free for Thailand. It’s hard to compete with that. But Thailand is finding out themselves right about now what kind of quality they got in return buying subs and ships from China. Lol. The quality issues of Chinese made weapons is only going to help South Korea.
“it has a long way to go before it evens comes up to the level of the current Block of the F-35A and by that time” – TOK
The Boramae was never meant to compete with the F-35. But it’s going to be better than the F-16 and F-15 because of the half stealth capability that Boramae has. It will be about 10 years for the final BlockC upgrade which would be a full stealth plane by then. Not every country is going for F-35 strictly. Many countries cannot afford the extravagant costs to buy and maintain them. Some will mix F-35 purchase with a 4th gen fighter. You don’t have drive the Benz everyday. You drive the Benz on the weekend, and then you drive the Hyundai as a commuter car for Monday to Friday.
You are not seeing the entire forest. This is just a beginning for South Korea’s fighter jet program. This is the first crack at building a fully domesticated jet fighter. South Korean engineers are rapidly learning and they will improve. Already, I would argue that South Korea’s production technology to assemble these jets, has now gone way past any of the US jet fighter makers. South Korea’s KAI has automated and robotized much of the work that are still being done by hand to assemble the planes in America. What takes an American worker a week to drill holes, the KAI automation can do it in 5 minutes with greater accuracy. This is why it only took them 5 years to go from blue prints to completed prototype. Don’t be so arrogant that only the US can make good jet fighters, just like how Americans used to believe they’re the ones who can make good cars. We’ll see how wrong you are in few years. The problems that South Korea goes beyond just North Korea who only have nuclear weapons. Preparing for the future is necessary to survive in a very tough unforgiving neighborhood.
“Beijingboy is clearly racist and misogynistic” – setnaffa
Says the old and crippled stage 4 cancer patient.
Racism is a concept created by globalist fascists – chickenhead
“Aren’t you supposed to get your chemo fix for your stage 4 cancer? Once you finally croak, I bet your “me-love-you long time” wife will go blowing another guy with smelly dick for five bucks.”
Shame on you, Korea Man.
Having observed Setnaffa’s thinking for a long time and even poking at him in the distant past to gauge his reaction, I believe is is a rare sweet and sincere man who does not deserve random shìttiness in a debate that is more technical than political.
Save you personal attacks of that nature for people who won’t denounce pedophilia or those who believe the latest government-sponsored Fear of the Year™ and want to find intrusive ways to make you belive it to… or at least pay for their psychosis.
As far as the topic, I’m old enough to remember when Korea couldn’t make a car… and now they are among the best.
All journeys begin with a first step and I completely support Korea building fighters… as I believe they will master the technology for their intended market within a decade or two… as Korea has many of the developed industries necessary… from semiconductors to metallurgy and a nation of smart and educated people.
(Software, on the other hand… “Korean Aerospace Stealth Weapons Platform proudly powered by ActiveX” or “Incoming Threat Response has crashed. Please reinstall Internet Explorer 4 and try your countermeasure selection again,” are not ideal.)
I’m even rethinking the Korean carrier group if the actual goal is a long-term secret plan to energize the shipbuilding/steel/electronics industries by selling carrier groups on the international market rather than satisfying nationalist fantasies about defending Korea from Dokdo invaders.
You know in an expat blog that existed years ago, if one of the commentators resorted to personal attacks, the blog owner would ban that person.
Korean Man should count his blessings that the current owner seems to be much more liberal when it comes to commentators resorting to personal attacks.
Relax TOK, personal attacks in here have been the usual in this forum that includes the stage 4 cancer man, who has replied to every one of my posts with a ‘Beijing Boy” Chinese accusations.
Given a certain person denigrates Korean women, toes the CCP line with every post (while accusing others of following a cult of personality), and doesn’t really seem to know about Korea, I thought my remarks apt. And, unlike that individual’s obvious lack of familiarity with South Korea, stages of neoplastic disease, or general societal norms, I know the difference between my arse and a hole in the ground.
I do wonder about his mental and emotional health when he flaps back and forth between being a victim and accusing wives and such of being sex-workers and adulterers using the most offensive language he imagines possible. It sounds as though he either has an online pr0n addiction or a recent breakup. Or both. If I know roughly where he was in Korea (and his primary language), I could recommend professional counseling services.
BTW, having worked around GIs off and on for about 44 years, I’ve heard worse language. Even middle-school kids use worse these days. So try to stretch your vocabulary skills to words that mean something, instead of giving in to your poorly-affected “Tourette’s Syndrome.”
BTW, a useful website for determining cancer stages is
www dot cancer dot net/navigating-cancer-care/diagnosing-cancer/stages-cancer
And a useful site for learning more about traditional Korean culture is
www dot optilingo dot com/blog/korean/korean-culture-an-overview/
Of course, the best way is to make friends with actual South Koreans and others who love that nation. Paying attention to Korean culture can help our ten-cent army friend avoid being accused of “acting like he has no family.”
And speaking of personal attacks, if one is going to make them, they should avoid being trite and tiresome. Here’s a primer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFiLIsMieiQ