As sophisticated as Dr Barry seems to be, I would guess there is no actual rebound for 99.999% of Norkistani peasants, just more money for Kim Fatty to buy foreign goods.
152G
1 year ago
I wonder what a pallet of HE 152mm artillery shells currently barters for on the NK/ Russian border?
Korean Man
1 year ago
Yet the United States refuses to let South Korea defend itself and be kept on the US leash, utterly dependent on the US. When is the US going to give up this delusion that North Korea will give up its nukes?
South Korea doesn’t want any more promises of US nuclear protection. The US has to do just one thing. Just let South Korea defend itself by building its own deterrence – the right to possess nuclear deterrence, the right to reprocess nuclear material (like NATO and Japan has), and the right to build its own nuclear submarines (why can’t Korea develop and build its own nuclear submarines when the US is selling nuke subs to Australia??). The restrictions put on South Korea, by the US, are some of the most ridiculous policies when you consider what some of the other US allies are freely allowed to do.
GrayBlack
1 year ago
Yet the United States refuses to let South Korea defend itself
I’m glad we agree the United States shouldn’t have undermined Park Chung Hee and Chun Doo Hwan. Actual Korean Nationalists who were trying to build nuclear weapons, but were overthrown by American educated and indoctrinated Korean leftists like you.
Korean Man
1 year ago
Grayblack, I don’t know where you’re getting your history from. Park was overthrown by one of his own men from the secret police. Chun wasn’t overthrown, he passed the baton to one of his army buddies, Roh Tae Woo, after he couldn’t take the heat from all the protests nationwide.
True Korean nationalists transcend beyond party lines. True Korean nationalists advocate for a Korea that stands on its own two feet, instead of helplessly using the United States as a crutch (the American right wants South Korea to be helpless and dependent on the US). For instance, it was Liberal Party president Kim Dae Jung 25 years ago who advocated for Korea’s self-defense industry which Korea is benefitting from today (with the Korean rightwingers now putting their dirty spoons into, trying to take credit, when they’ve always been highly critical of Korean military R&D, and always advocated to just buy everything from the US with ludicrous exorbitant costs without any questions asked).
GrayBlack
1 year ago
KM, if you keep ignoring historical context you’ll never truly understand history. Heck, you won’t even understand present day. So here’s some context.
Park was assassinated during major leftist rioting by Kim Jae-gyu who, in his own words, claimed that Park was an obstacle to democracy. It was clear he sympathized with their movement. In more recent revelations in the early 2000s, it was revealed Kim was personally close to several left wing leaders during the crisis. Turns out initial suspicions about Kim being a leftist going all the way back to 1961 were in fact warranted.
Chun inherited a political crisis in 1979 and by May 18, 1980 was dealing with a potential revolution that required military force to put down. This would sour relations with the US. In order to keep the Americans happy, he was forced to vow not to develop missiles with a range longer than 180 km or capable of carrying greater than a 453 kg warhead, this pissed off the military. He was also forced by leftist sympathizers within the civilian government to revoked the Yushin Constitution and liberalized. This further lost him support from the military… you know the people who got him into the position in the first place. Matters were made worse by making Noh Shin-yeong his apparent successor. A choice he would quickly revert as his government further destabilized. With constant left wing protesting in the streets in near or outright riotous conditions throughout the 1980s, and without military backing to fully suppress them, Chun was left with a very weak rule.
By June 1987, a full blown constitutional crisis had emerged (turns out revoking the Yushin Constitution was a political nightmare) because he could not retain office under the new constitution, and the military that could have kept him in power didn’t like him anymore. Throughout the year left wing unions had run amok and openly instigated industrial sabotage. Leftists saw their chance and the June “democracy” Movement soon happened and democratization was set on course after Chun was forced to step down and fully hand government over to the liberals.
In other words, Park and Chun were forced out by leftist by means of revolution. Their mistakes were not being the actual dictators they stood accused of being. Park should have outright said he would be the permanent ruler of South Korea like Lee Kwan Yee did in Singapore. In fact, it would have been best if he outright restored the monarchy.
KM, I wonder if you know who the biggest proponent and funder of “democracy” was in the 20th century (and still is) and was ceaselessly promoting it world wide with subversive “free” radio, TV, and higher education? We have a word for it today. Color revolutions… in fact, the very country now openly brags about it’s role in building “civil society” in South Korea.
Grayblack is actually advocating Korea should have remained a dictatorship, with no free elections, no freedom of speech, and he is excusing the Gwangju massacre as a communist rebellion.
I think I’ll just let his crazy written words speak for themselves. No need to waste my time debating such people.
TOK
1 year ago
LOL! This GrayBlack guy is more wacko than Flyingsword and Tara O combined.
Let’see.
Park was assassinated during major leftist rioting by Kim Jae-gyu who, in his own words, claimed that Park was an obstacle to democracy. It was clear he sympathized with their movement. In more recent revelations in the early 2000s, it was revealed Kim was personally close to several left wing leaders during the crisis. Turns out initial suspicions about Kim being a leftist going all the way back to 1961 were in fact warranted.
Kim Jae-gyu was part of Park’s inner circle. He was KCIA head from 1976, before that from 1974~76 he was Construction Minister.
There was leftist rioting in Busan at that time, but that was a result of Park Chung-hee expelling Kim Young-sam from the National Assembly. It wasn’t a riot led by Kim Jae-gyu.
Yes, Kim Jae-gyu is know to have been uncomfortable with the direction the Park presidency was going after he declared Yushin on 1972.
And yes he had a close relationship with Chang Jun-ha and Cardinal Kim Sou-hwan but not the main oppostion leaders such as Kim Young-sam and Kim Dae-jung.
And also yes, he had troubles with Cha Ji-cheul the Head of the Presidential Security Services, who he felt was marginalizing the KCIA and himself.
Now, If you look at how things turned out on that fateful day, it doesn’t seem like a well organized conspiracy or coup.
Instead, it looks more like a spur of the moment thing where Kim’s pent-up feelings regarding the Park presidency and his anger at Cha just boiled over and he decided to take matters into his own hands.
(On that day, Kim was accompanying Park for a dam opening and tour of a TV station, and Cha refused to let Kim board the Presidential helo and to top it off, Cha berated Kim during the last dinner with Park)
By June 1987, a full blown constitutional crisis had emerged (turns out revoking the Yushin Constitution was a political nightmare) because he could not retain office under the new constitution, and the military that could have kept him in power didn’t like him anymore.
When Chun became president after a military coup, he created a new constitution that stipulated a single seven year term for president and an electoral college that voted in the president.
Chun didn’t want to stay more than the seven years but he wanted his buddy Roh Tae-woo to continue on after him.
The electoral college and other strongarm policies were the sorepoints and as such anti-government protests have been going on after Chun became president. The guy took the presidency by a coup using the power vaccum left by the Park assassination and brutally surpressed any opposition, so he didn’t have much love.
What made June 1987 different was the torture and death of two students.
That bought ordinary people into the streets, and Chun not wanting bloodshed before the Olympics agreed to direct Presidential elections, which BTW resulted in his buddy Roh becoming President, the result Chun wanted all along.
From my viewpoint, those two presidents don’t look like they were overthrown by a left wing conspiracy or a riot.
I could go on and punch more holes in GrayBlack’s claims but I think the above two main points are enough for now.
GrayBlack
1 year ago
From my viewpoint, those two presidents don’t look like they were overthrown by a left wing conspiracy or a riot. [etc]
You cite endless evidence of left wing sympathies from within the Korean government and society at large, which are what caused the fall of the military governments. You then take that to claim they weren’t overthrown by a left wing conspiracy or riot.
Comrade, you appear to suffer from major cognitive dissonance.
What if there was no significant internal government opposition to Park and Chun? What if Kim Jae-gyu was a Park loyalist? What if Park and Chun were able, with full government backing, to squash with full force any leftist subversion? Chances are the South Korea would still be a military government today.
The most hilarious part is that you don’t engage with the most important point I made. That the opposition/democracy movement was largely created by America who was interested in building a “civil society” within South Korea. That the democracy movement was what we call today a color revolution that Americans in the know openly brag about today.
The truth is that you, KM, and KP are American stooges who endlessly repeat left wing American talking points ad nauseam. You hate America for all the same reasons leftist Americans hate America. You indulge in American culture, politics, and even speak the Imperial language of American English while at the same time dishonoring the traditional values of your forefathers. There is nothing Korean about your lot and you all don’t even realize it.
There was leftist rioting in Busan at that time, but that was a result of Park Chung-hee expelling Kim Young-sam from the National Assembly.
Ah, you can admit they were riots and not simply “peaceful protests.” Now can you recognize the 5·18 incident was also riots? Can you admit that those riots were specifically in opposition to the legitimate authority at the time and thus, by definition, insurrections?
The government had a legitimate right to put those down. Kim Young-sam was a subversive leftist, and under the Yushin constitution, it was well in Park’s legal right to expel him. And don’t forget what was happening in Masan. It wasn’t limited to Busan.
It wasn’t a riot led by Kim Jae-gyu.
Not what I said. Perhaps some comas would help you: “Park was assassinated, during major leftist rioting, by Kim Jae-gyu who.” I pointed out Kim was outright sympathetic to the leftist rioters and it was his motivation to assassinate.
Yes, Kim Jae-gyu is know to have been uncomfortable with the direction the Park presidency was going after he declared Yushin on 1972.
He was uncomfortable with Park’s military coup in 1961 and failed to participate in it. His lack of loyalty originated over a decade prior.
And yes he had a close relationship with Chang Jun-ha and Cardinal Kim Sou-hwan but not the main oppostion leaders such as Kim Young-sam and Kim Dae-jung.
Curious, you can admit to Kim Jae-gyu’s affliation with major leftist voices at the time who were in the same camp as Kim Young-sam and Kim Dae-jung, and were very much intermediaries between disparate individuals of the democracy movement.
Now, If you look at how things turned out on that fateful day, it doesn’t seem like a well organized conspiracy or coup.
No it wasn’t well organized. That doesn’t dismiss my point of the motivation being leftist sympathies:
“Kim himself argued during his post-assassination trial that his actions were premeditated, carried out for the sake of overthrowing Park’s dictatorship and restoring democracy. Kim’s lawyers and other defenders insisted on his sincerity and argued that Korean democracy was “indebted to” Kim, who they asserted had accelerated its establishment through the assassination”
Guess who’s stance it was that the assassination was the spontaneous work of a resentful man who aimed to eliminate his enemies in Cha and Park? You’ve ironically bought into Chun’s propaganda which was designed to downplay the democracy movement.
When Chun became president after a military coup, he created a new constitution that stipulated a single seven year term for president and an electoral college that voted in the president.
He did so under both internal and external pressure. The Americans in no certain terms told him to liberalize. Even Park Chung Hee had to make similar concessions to the Americans. The only reason there was even voting in the Park and Chun era was because of American insistence.
Chun didn’t want to stay more than the seven years but he wanted his buddy Roh Tae-woo to continue on after him.
Only after he ran out of all other options.
Korean Person
1 year ago
The most hilarious part is that you don’t engage with the most important point I made. That the opposition/democracy movement was largely created by America who was interested in building a “civil society” within South Korea. That the democracy movement was what we call today a color revolution that Americans in the know openly brag about today.
The truth is that you, KM, and KP are American stooges who endlessly repeat left wing American talking points ad nauseam. You hate America for all the same reasons leftist Americans hate America. You indulge in American culture, politics, and even speak the Imperial language of American English while at the same time dishonoring the traditional values of your forefathers. There is nothing Korean about your lot and you all don’t even realize it.
As TOK and KM said, this guy is surely wacko and need mental help. Just like our good old setnaffa, but to his credit even setnaffa with his fake news and misinformation wasn’t this wacko. Or is this the more and true wacko version of setnaffa that he is showing now?
Anyways, this guy accuses Koreans of being pro-American and then accuses of being anti-American in the same sentence?
He credits America for creating the current democratic Korea and says that was wrong?
No doubt from the above that the Setnaffarians are anti-American Russobots who have always used deception and gaslighting to hide their true intentions.
I believe the Russians call it maskirovka.
GrayBlack
1 year ago
Anyways, this guy accuses Koreans of being pro-American and then accuses of being anti-American in the same sentence?
American foreign policy is ruled by leftist Americans who hate America (and you too). That you’ve adopted the same ideas and values of leftist Americans, that you even speak leftist American lingo, and that you act in their interests, is not at all in conflict with being ‘anti-American’ or being ‘pro-American.’ Both can be true at the same time! America is an empire in perpetual cold civil war at home and open hostilities abroad, similar to how Rome was torn apart by Optimates and Populares. You just happen to be a stooge for one of the factions without realizing it.
this guy is surely wacko and need mental help.
I see this is a difficult reality to for you to accept. Your entire self identity, your very soul, is a facade of the American Empire. You are fake and manufactured and that all the ideas you thought were your own, are really just American propaganda you mindlessly repeat. You are not Korean, but an overseas leftist American puppet, but that isn’t something you can accept can you? Otherwise you’d actually have to do some introspective soul searching. I hear such things are painful.
He credits America for creating the current democratic Korea and says that was wrong?
Yes. America should respect the traditions, cultures, and internal politics of other countries. A general policy of non-interference. That is what made the Westphalian peace possible, a hall mark of classical International Relations. Instead, America went on a liberal democracy crusade and the rest is history.
As sophisticated as Dr Barry seems to be, I would guess there is no actual rebound for 99.999% of Norkistani peasants, just more money for Kim Fatty to buy foreign goods.
I wonder what a pallet of HE 152mm artillery shells currently barters for on the NK/ Russian border?
Yet the United States refuses to let South Korea defend itself and be kept on the US leash, utterly dependent on the US. When is the US going to give up this delusion that North Korea will give up its nukes?
South Korea doesn’t want any more promises of US nuclear protection. The US has to do just one thing. Just let South Korea defend itself by building its own deterrence – the right to possess nuclear deterrence, the right to reprocess nuclear material (like NATO and Japan has), and the right to build its own nuclear submarines (why can’t Korea develop and build its own nuclear submarines when the US is selling nuke subs to Australia??). The restrictions put on South Korea, by the US, are some of the most ridiculous policies when you consider what some of the other US allies are freely allowed to do.
I’m glad we agree the United States shouldn’t have undermined Park Chung Hee and Chun Doo Hwan. Actual Korean Nationalists who were trying to build nuclear weapons, but were overthrown by American educated and indoctrinated Korean leftists like you.
Grayblack, I don’t know where you’re getting your history from. Park was overthrown by one of his own men from the secret police. Chun wasn’t overthrown, he passed the baton to one of his army buddies, Roh Tae Woo, after he couldn’t take the heat from all the protests nationwide.
True Korean nationalists transcend beyond party lines. True Korean nationalists advocate for a Korea that stands on its own two feet, instead of helplessly using the United States as a crutch (the American right wants South Korea to be helpless and dependent on the US). For instance, it was Liberal Party president Kim Dae Jung 25 years ago who advocated for Korea’s self-defense industry which Korea is benefitting from today (with the Korean rightwingers now putting their dirty spoons into, trying to take credit, when they’ve always been highly critical of Korean military R&D, and always advocated to just buy everything from the US with ludicrous exorbitant costs without any questions asked).
KM, if you keep ignoring historical context you’ll never truly understand history. Heck, you won’t even understand present day. So here’s some context.
Park was assassinated during major leftist rioting by Kim Jae-gyu who, in his own words, claimed that Park was an obstacle to democracy. It was clear he sympathized with their movement. In more recent revelations in the early 2000s, it was revealed Kim was personally close to several left wing leaders during the crisis. Turns out initial suspicions about Kim being a leftist going all the way back to 1961 were in fact warranted.
Chun inherited a political crisis in 1979 and by May 18, 1980 was dealing with a potential revolution that required military force to put down. This would sour relations with the US. In order to keep the Americans happy, he was forced to vow not to develop missiles with a range longer than 180 km or capable of carrying greater than a 453 kg warhead, this pissed off the military. He was also forced by leftist sympathizers within the civilian government to revoked the Yushin Constitution and liberalized. This further lost him support from the military… you know the people who got him into the position in the first place. Matters were made worse by making Noh Shin-yeong his apparent successor. A choice he would quickly revert as his government further destabilized. With constant left wing protesting in the streets in near or outright riotous conditions throughout the 1980s, and without military backing to fully suppress them, Chun was left with a very weak rule.
By June 1987, a full blown constitutional crisis had emerged (turns out revoking the Yushin Constitution was a political nightmare) because he could not retain office under the new constitution, and the military that could have kept him in power didn’t like him anymore. Throughout the year left wing unions had run amok and openly instigated industrial sabotage. Leftists saw their chance and the June “democracy” Movement soon happened and democratization was set on course after Chun was forced to step down and fully hand government over to the liberals.
In other words, Park and Chun were forced out by leftist by means of revolution. Their mistakes were not being the actual dictators they stood accused of being. Park should have outright said he would be the permanent ruler of South Korea like Lee Kwan Yee did in Singapore. In fact, it would have been best if he outright restored the monarchy.
KM, I wonder if you know who the biggest proponent and funder of “democracy” was in the 20th century (and still is) and was ceaselessly promoting it world wide with subversive “free” radio, TV, and higher education? We have a word for it today. Color revolutions… in fact, the very country now openly brags about it’s role in building “civil society” in South Korea.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/event/nation-building-south-korea-koreans-americans-and-the-making-democracy
Grayblack is actually advocating Korea should have remained a dictatorship, with no free elections, no freedom of speech, and he is excusing the Gwangju massacre as a communist rebellion.
I think I’ll just let his crazy written words speak for themselves. No need to waste my time debating such people.
LOL! This GrayBlack guy is more wacko than Flyingsword and Tara O combined.
Let’see.
Kim Jae-gyu was part of Park’s inner circle. He was KCIA head from 1976, before that from 1974~76 he was Construction Minister.
There was leftist rioting in Busan at that time, but that was a result of Park Chung-hee expelling Kim Young-sam from the National Assembly. It wasn’t a riot led by Kim Jae-gyu.
Yes, Kim Jae-gyu is know to have been uncomfortable with the direction the Park presidency was going after he declared Yushin on 1972.
And yes he had a close relationship with Chang Jun-ha and Cardinal Kim Sou-hwan but not the main oppostion leaders such as Kim Young-sam and Kim Dae-jung.
And also yes, he had troubles with Cha Ji-cheul the Head of the Presidential Security Services, who he felt was marginalizing the KCIA and himself.
Now, If you look at how things turned out on that fateful day, it doesn’t seem like a well organized conspiracy or coup.
Instead, it looks more like a spur of the moment thing where Kim’s pent-up feelings regarding the Park presidency and his anger at Cha just boiled over and he decided to take matters into his own hands.
(On that day, Kim was accompanying Park for a dam opening and tour of a TV station, and Cha refused to let Kim board the Presidential helo and to top it off, Cha berated Kim during the last dinner with Park)
When Chun became president after a military coup, he created a new constitution that stipulated a single seven year term for president and an electoral college that voted in the president.
Chun didn’t want to stay more than the seven years but he wanted his buddy Roh Tae-woo to continue on after him.
The electoral college and other strongarm policies were the sorepoints and as such anti-government protests have been going on after Chun became president. The guy took the presidency by a coup using the power vaccum left by the Park assassination and brutally surpressed any opposition, so he didn’t have much love.
What made June 1987 different was the torture and death of two students.
That bought ordinary people into the streets, and Chun not wanting bloodshed before the Olympics agreed to direct Presidential elections, which BTW resulted in his buddy Roh becoming President, the result Chun wanted all along.
From my viewpoint, those two presidents don’t look like they were overthrown by a left wing conspiracy or a riot.
I could go on and punch more holes in GrayBlack’s claims but I think the above two main points are enough for now.
You cite endless evidence of left wing sympathies from within the Korean government and society at large, which are what caused the fall of the military governments. You then take that to claim they weren’t overthrown by a left wing conspiracy or riot.
Comrade, you appear to suffer from major cognitive dissonance.
What if there was no significant internal government opposition to Park and Chun? What if Kim Jae-gyu was a Park loyalist? What if Park and Chun were able, with full government backing, to squash with full force any leftist subversion? Chances are the South Korea would still be a military government today.
The most hilarious part is that you don’t engage with the most important point I made. That the opposition/democracy movement was largely created by America who was interested in building a “civil society” within South Korea. That the democracy movement was what we call today a color revolution that Americans in the know openly brag about today.
The truth is that you, KM, and KP are American stooges who endlessly repeat left wing American talking points ad nauseam. You hate America for all the same reasons leftist Americans hate America. You indulge in American culture, politics, and even speak the Imperial language of American English while at the same time dishonoring the traditional values of your forefathers. There is nothing Korean about your lot and you all don’t even realize it.
Ah, you can admit they were riots and not simply “peaceful protests.” Now can you recognize the 5·18 incident was also riots? Can you admit that those riots were specifically in opposition to the legitimate authority at the time and thus, by definition, insurrections?
The government had a legitimate right to put those down. Kim Young-sam was a subversive leftist, and under the Yushin constitution, it was well in Park’s legal right to expel him. And don’t forget what was happening in Masan. It wasn’t limited to Busan.
Not what I said. Perhaps some comas would help you: “Park was assassinated, during major leftist rioting, by Kim Jae-gyu who.” I pointed out Kim was outright sympathetic to the leftist rioters and it was his motivation to assassinate.
He was uncomfortable with Park’s military coup in 1961 and failed to participate in it. His lack of loyalty originated over a decade prior.
Curious, you can admit to Kim Jae-gyu’s affliation with major leftist voices at the time who were in the same camp as Kim Young-sam and Kim Dae-jung, and were very much intermediaries between disparate individuals of the democracy movement.
No it wasn’t well organized. That doesn’t dismiss my point of the motivation being leftist sympathies:
“Kim himself argued during his post-assassination trial that his actions were premeditated, carried out for the sake of overthrowing Park’s dictatorship and restoring democracy. Kim’s lawyers and other defenders insisted on his sincerity and argued that Korean democracy was “indebted to” Kim, who they asserted had accelerated its establishment through the assassination”
Guess who’s stance it was that the assassination was the spontaneous work of a resentful man who aimed to eliminate his enemies in Cha and Park? You’ve ironically bought into Chun’s propaganda which was designed to downplay the democracy movement.
He did so under both internal and external pressure. The Americans in no certain terms told him to liberalize. Even Park Chung Hee had to make similar concessions to the Americans. The only reason there was even voting in the Park and Chun era was because of American insistence.
Only after he ran out of all other options.
The most hilarious part is that you don’t engage with the most important point I made. That the opposition/democracy movement was largely created by America who was interested in building a “civil society” within South Korea. That the democracy movement was what we call today a color revolution that Americans in the know openly brag about today.
The truth is that you, KM, and KP are American stooges who endlessly repeat left wing American talking points ad nauseam. You hate America for all the same reasons leftist Americans hate America. You indulge in American culture, politics, and even speak the Imperial language of American English while at the same time dishonoring the traditional values of your forefathers. There is nothing Korean about your lot and you all don’t even realize it.
As TOK and KM said, this guy is surely wacko and need mental help. Just like our good old setnaffa, but to his credit even setnaffa with his fake news and misinformation wasn’t this wacko. Or is this the more and true wacko version of setnaffa that he is showing now?
Anyways, this guy accuses Koreans of being pro-American and then accuses of being anti-American in the same sentence?
He credits America for creating the current democratic Korea and says that was wrong?
No doubt from the above that the Setnaffarians are anti-American Russobots who have always used deception and gaslighting to hide their true intentions.
I believe the Russians call it maskirovka.
American foreign policy is ruled by leftist Americans who hate America (and you too). That you’ve adopted the same ideas and values of leftist Americans, that you even speak leftist American lingo, and that you act in their interests, is not at all in conflict with being ‘anti-American’ or being ‘pro-American.’ Both can be true at the same time! America is an empire in perpetual cold civil war at home and open hostilities abroad, similar to how Rome was torn apart by Optimates and Populares. You just happen to be a stooge for one of the factions without realizing it.
I see this is a difficult reality to for you to accept. Your entire self identity, your very soul, is a facade of the American Empire. You are fake and manufactured and that all the ideas you thought were your own, are really just American propaganda you mindlessly repeat. You are not Korean, but an overseas leftist American puppet, but that isn’t something you can accept can you? Otherwise you’d actually have to do some introspective soul searching. I hear such things are painful.
Yes. America should respect the traditions, cultures, and internal politics of other countries. A general policy of non-interference. That is what made the Westphalian peace possible, a hall mark of classical International Relations. Instead, America went on a liberal democracy crusade and the rest is history.